Arthur Shawcross /// The Genesee River Killer

29 comments

  • Emily

    Emily Baltimore

    This case has an eerie similarity to Stephen King's book IT. Arthur Shawcross is like Pennywise the clown, stalking little kids "down by the river" (RIP Chris Farley) in a working-class New England town. You guys mentioned, too, Shawcross married a woman named Penny. Spooky.... While the novel It was published in 1986 -- a year before Shawcross was released from prison -- King might have read about the two murders Shawcross was convicted of. I wonder if King's fiction has been informed, in some way, by true crime? Truth is stranger than fiction...and monsters are real. Thanks for one of my favorite go-to podcasts!

    This case has an eerie similarity to Stephen King's book IT.

    Arthur Shawcross is like Pennywise the clown, stalking little kids "down by the river" (RIP Chris Farley) in a working-class New England town.

    You guys mentioned, too, Shawcross married a woman named Penny. Spooky....

    While the novel It was published in 1986 -- a year before Shawcross was released from prison -- King might have read about the two murders Shawcross was convicted of.

    I wonder if King's fiction has been informed, in some way, by true crime? Truth is stranger than fiction...and monsters are real.

    Thanks for one of my favorite go-to podcasts!

  • True Crime Garage

    True Crime Garage

    Hi Emily, You might be right. King used BTK as the inspiration for his fantastic story... A Good Marriage. Thanks for the thoughts! Nic

    Hi Emily,
    You might be right. King used BTK as the inspiration for his fantastic story...
    A Good Marriage.
    Thanks for the thoughts!
    Nic

  • Jen

    Jen Junction City OR

    So you won’t do Pee Wee but you do this SOB?? 😂 Sorry. This guy is nasty.

    So you won’t do Pee Wee but you do this SOB?? 😂 Sorry. This guy is nasty.

  • Candace

    Candace Rochester NY

    Wonderful! Rottenchester had open arms for this asshole. Why couldn't we push him out like the other cities?! Oh! Because theres sooo much crazy violent tragic shit going on here all the time anyway! Smh I live near where he use to. & Lyell & Lake are still jam packed with prostitutes, sadly. Home of one of theeee grossest strip clubs. Great episode nevertheless

    Wonderful! Rottenchester had open arms for this asshole. Why couldn't we push him out like the other cities?! Oh! Because theres sooo much crazy violent tragic shit going on here all the time anyway! Smh I live near where he use to. & Lyell & Lake are still jam packed with prostitutes, sadly. Home of one of theeee grossest strip clubs. Great episode nevertheless

  • Shawna

    Shawna Nebraska

    That was one of the hardest episodes to listen to while eating breakfast.

    That was one of the hardest episodes to listen to while eating breakfast.

  • Shawna

    Shawna Nebraska

    Note to self *don't try and eat breakfast while listening to true crime garage, you don't know what you will end up hearing*

    Note to self *don't try and eat breakfast while listening to true crime garage, you don't know what you will end up hearing*

  • Tbird

    Tbird Ottawa

    Nic said Coquitlam perfectly!

    Nic said Coquitlam perfectly!

  • Aida

    Aida Orange CA

    Listening to the conversation between you two and John about how Arthur would tell him how to abduct/kill/pressure points and I am freaking out at my desk. How did you guys remain so calm while speaking with this guy? He seemed a little too comfortable repeating what him and Arthur discussed.

    Listening to the conversation between you two and John about how Arthur would tell him how to abduct/kill/pressure points and I am freaking out at my desk. How did you guys remain so calm while speaking with this guy? He seemed a little too comfortable repeating what him and Arthur discussed.

  • Amy

    Amy Minnesota

    Please say the FBI is aware of your guest today. Yikes!

    Please say the FBI is aware of your guest today. Yikes!

  • Thom

    Thom Columbus ohio

    What in fresh hell with that phone call? That guy is sick! I hope someone is keeping an eye on this fellow before he ends up like Arthur!

    What in fresh hell with that phone call? That guy is sick! I hope someone is keeping an eye on this fellow before he ends up like Arthur!

  • Reb

    Reb DC

    I am amongst your number one fans and a frequent contributor to the message boards and I just finished listening to Part 2 and ... WTF??? You realize that that guy is a socio-path, right. He places the blame on others for his aberrant and odious psyche (didn’t his recounting of his youth abuse bear eerie similarities Shawcross in blaming bad adults for explaining his aberrant behavior?) His completely sociopathic explanation about how his form of cannibalism is more loving and kind than Showcrofts?!? Really? REALLY??? What killed me though, and I wish you had called out, was his blasé attitude about the selling of the art of this monster. He made multiple snooty digs at eBay implying How Dare They Ban The Sale of This Stuff. Stuff whose creation and value exists solely off the suffering and extermination of the very women and children that you seemed earlier in the program to truly care about. You think the families of the victims got any of his cut of the profits in restitution?!? AND, that whole BS justifying his relationship and later “reform” because of the value of having a like minded mentor to explore his thoughts with. That reminds me a hell of a lot like the justification of a Kiddie Diddler who trades child prn and lurks in vile chat rooms because he claims it keeps him from actually raping a live child. I love you guys and obviously understand the need to be polite to a guest (although I was waiting for a burning question- like when he was creeping out about SKULLS, what I wouldn’t have paid for one of you to ask “so exactly how old were when you started killing small animals?”) Some editorialization or disavowal of an obviously deranged person (oh, that’s right, the drugs and alcohol made him a complete nut) would have been warranted. I will wait for the episode on his crimes and capture in a couple of years. But I really do love you guys! Seeing you pop into my podcast queue each Tuesday is the highlight of my week.

    I am amongst your number one fans and a frequent contributor to the message boards and I just finished listening to Part 2 and ... WTF???
    You realize that that guy is a socio-path, right. He places the blame on others for his aberrant and odious psyche (didn’t his recounting of his youth abuse bear eerie similarities Shawcross in blaming bad adults for explaining his aberrant behavior?)
    His completely sociopathic explanation about how his form of cannibalism is more loving and kind than Showcrofts?!? Really? REALLY???
    What killed me though, and I wish you had called out, was his blasé attitude about the selling of the art of this monster. He made multiple snooty digs at eBay implying How Dare They Ban The Sale of This Stuff. Stuff whose creation and value exists solely off the suffering and extermination of the very women and children that you seemed earlier in the program to truly care about. You think the families of the victims got any of his cut of the profits in restitution?!?
    AND, that whole BS justifying his relationship and later “reform” because of the value of having a like minded mentor to explore his thoughts with. That reminds me a hell of a lot like the justification of a Kiddie Diddler who trades child prn and lurks in vile chat rooms because he claims it keeps him from actually raping a live child.
    I love you guys and obviously understand the need to be polite to a guest (although I was waiting for a burning question- like when he was creeping out about SKULLS, what I wouldn’t have paid for one of you to ask “so exactly how old were when you started killing small animals?”)
    Some editorialization or disavowal of an obviously deranged person (oh, that’s right, the drugs and alcohol made him a complete nut) would have been warranted.
    I will wait for the episode on his crimes and capture in a couple of years.
    But I really do love you guys! Seeing you pop into my podcast queue each Tuesday is the highlight of my week.

  • girlfriday

    girlfriday

    Uh, that guy on phone... wth

    Uh, that guy on phone... wth

  • Jennifer  F

    Jennifer F Tennessee

    You guy, WOW. This was at the same time the most disturbing and fascinating podcast I have ever listened too. I immediately called both my brother and sister who listen to the show to ask if they had listened yet. I think part 2 is a must hear for anyone interested in criminal psychology. I'm glad you stopped to confirm we were hearing what we thought we heard. In this episonded y'all crossed over from entertainment into real journalism. You totally knocked it out of the park with that interview. Thank you, keep up the good work and Cheers.

    You guy, WOW. This was at the same time the most disturbing and fascinating podcast I have ever listened too. I immediately called both my brother and sister who listen to the show to ask if they had listened yet. I think part 2 is a must hear for anyone interested in criminal psychology. I'm glad you stopped to confirm we were hearing what we thought we heard. In this episonded y'all crossed over from entertainment into real journalism. You totally knocked it out of the park with that interview. Thank you, keep up the good work and Cheers.

  • Your Friend JENN

    Your Friend JENN Indiucky

    Please guys, tell us what was going on in your minds while chatting with the creeper on the phone. My mind was having a hard time processing what I was hearing.

    Please guys, tell us what was going on in your minds while chatting with the creeper on the phone. My mind was having a hard time processing what I was hearing.

  • Aralia

    Aralia Pflugerville

    What a disturbing and fascinating episode! The interview was really hard to listen too though, the whole time I was wondering if I was hearing correctly. But great job guys, as always you keep it professional and you delivered a great episode.

    What a disturbing and fascinating episode! The interview was really hard to listen too though, the whole time I was wondering if I was hearing correctly. But great job guys, as always you keep it professional and you delivered a great episode.

  • Kathy

    Kathy Chicago

    I am considering the possibility that though John Paul Fay is clearly troubled, there is a huge difference between him and those who have acted on their dark impulses and fantasies. As human beings, we ALL have a shadow side. Not all of us obsess about eating or screwing dead people, thankfully, but we all are capable of hurting others or ourselves given the circumstances and other factors. I give him credit for having the courage to openly acknowledge his dark nature and to try to understand the sinister/evil side of others. The worst criminals and serial killers are also capable of some goodness. John has made a moral choice not to act out and to seek help instead. I would suggest that he reach out to Talkspace.com rather than Arthur Shawcross for guidance however. As always, thanks for your first-rate productions. You are master storytellers and truthseekers through word and song.

    I am considering the possibility that though John Paul Fay is clearly troubled, there is a huge difference between him and those who have acted on their dark impulses and fantasies. As human beings, we ALL have a shadow side. Not all of us obsess about eating or screwing dead people, thankfully, but we all are capable of hurting others or ourselves given the circumstances and other factors. I give him credit for having the courage to openly acknowledge his dark nature and to try to understand the sinister/evil side of others. The worst criminals and serial killers are also capable of some goodness. John has made a moral choice not to act out and to seek help instead. I would suggest that he reach out to Talkspace.com rather than Arthur Shawcross for guidance however.

    As always, thanks for your first-rate productions. You are master storytellers and truthseekers through word and song.

  • Rachel

    Rachel NR

    I think that they handled the phone call really well. First of all, how are you supposed to respond to someone saying things as unnatural and inhumane as that guy was? And the matter of fact way he was saying it? To this guy, there was nothing wrong with what he was saying or thinking and if Nic and the Captain had somehow made him feel like they thought there was, he would have stopped talking and the interview would be over. They needed him to feel comfortable so that he would keep talking, If I had to guess, I imagine they both cracked a few extra beers when they hung up and retreated from that dude's alternate reality. But they did what they needed to to keep dialogue open. Could not have been easy. What I think everyone needs to take away from that is how dangerous psychopaths are. We all on a certain level expect that we will be able to pick them out of a crowd and know who to avoid because their abhorrent behavior will be evident in their body language and communication. But as this guy demonstrated, if there is no remorse or attention attached to his behavior or desires, then detecting who he really is when face to face with him would be next to impossible for most people. Now take that and apply it to all the strangers you have met over the last week. How do you know who they really are? How close did you come to this dude or someone like him? And finally lesson two: Do we really know who we are buying things from or interacting with on the internet? Shiver.....

    I think that they handled the phone call really well. First of all, how are you supposed to respond to someone saying things as unnatural and inhumane as that guy was? And the matter of fact way he was saying it? To this guy, there was nothing wrong with what he was saying or thinking and if Nic and the Captain had somehow made him feel like they thought there was, he would have stopped talking and the interview would be over. They needed him to feel comfortable so that he would keep talking, If I had to guess, I imagine they both cracked a few extra beers when they hung up and retreated from that dude's alternate reality. But they did what they needed to to keep dialogue open. Could not have been easy. What I think everyone needs to take away from that is how dangerous psychopaths are. We all on a certain level expect that we will be able to pick them out of a crowd and know who to avoid because their abhorrent behavior will be evident in their body language and communication. But as this guy demonstrated, if there is no remorse or attention attached to his behavior or desires, then detecting who he really is when face to face with him would be next to impossible for most people. Now take that and apply it to all the strangers you have met over the last week. How do you know who they really are? How close did you come to this dude or someone like him? And finally lesson two: Do we really know who we are buying things from or interacting with on the internet? Shiver.....

  • Allison

    Allison Newport

    Guys, LOVE the podcast. I'm a serial/chain listener and thank you so much for entertaining me while I draw building sections and details all day! However, can you add to the description of these podcasts which ones involve cannibalism?!?!?! I wanted to continue listening because I love your show and I knew this story on Arthur would be interesting but I literally GAGGED at my desk several times and just gave up. All the other podcasts have been fine but yeah, this one was rough. Haha, Instead I gave up and listened to another podcast from 2017. Also, you should look in the Lauren Spierer case. She went missing from IU in 2011. Might be worth a look. Thanks!

    Guys, LOVE the podcast. I'm a serial/chain listener and thank you so much for entertaining me while I draw building sections and details all day! However, can you add to the description of these podcasts which ones involve cannibalism?!?!?! I wanted to continue listening because I love your show and I knew this story on Arthur would be interesting but I literally GAGGED at my desk several times and just gave up. All the other podcasts have been fine but yeah, this one was rough. Haha, Instead I gave up and listened to another podcast from 2017.

    Also, you should look in the Lauren Spierer case. She went missing from IU in 2011. Might be worth a look. Thanks!

  • Anonymous

    Anonymous Las Vegas, NV

    I was speechless after listening to that phone call with John. Hopefully that phone call was made from a mental health facility. But great episode. Thank you!

    I was speechless after listening to that phone call with John. Hopefully that phone call was made from a mental health facility. But great episode. Thank you!

  • True Crime Garage

    True Crime Garage

    A lot of questions about our interview with John.... So I was certainly surprised with John's thoughts but was able to stay cool during the interview as I spoke with him before on a couple of occasions. So I had a very good idea of what was going on. We should keep in mind that John while he has some sick fantasies, he has never wanted to hurt anyone or do anything against anyone's consent. This is what he expressed to us. That alone separates him from Shawcross and the other monsters we have discussed. For what it's worth John was extremely nice to speak with on the multiple occasions that we interacted. He was polite and courteous but also keep in mind I am not a fool and I am simply reporting on my interactions with him. Outside of that I know little about him. What did make me want to understand John is that fact that this man has been treated very badly throughout his life by people that are suppose to be good to you and to teach you to be good to others. This did not happen for John and I believe this lead to a lot of drug and alcohol use. John probably simply using drugs and alcohol to abuse himself maybe even picking up where others abusive behavior left off. John is trying to change his mind and to get rid of these fantasies. I think it shows his strength and will to do so by coming forward. It also shows bravery to admit to the world who he is. I wish him a full recovery and I do believe he is working hard toward that. John if you read this thanks again for your honesty and good luck with your book. If you need someone to talk with just let me know, Nic

    A lot of questions about our interview with John....
    So I was certainly surprised with John's thoughts but was able to stay cool during the interview as I spoke with him before on a couple of occasions. So I had a very good idea of what was going on. We should keep in mind that John while he has some sick fantasies, he has never wanted to hurt anyone or do anything against anyone's consent. This is what he expressed to us. That alone separates him from Shawcross and the other monsters we have discussed. For what it's worth John was extremely nice to speak with on the multiple occasions that we interacted. He was polite and courteous but also keep in mind I am not a fool and I am simply reporting on my interactions with him. Outside of that I know little about him. What did make me want to understand John is that fact that this man has been treated very badly throughout his life by people that are suppose to be good to you and to teach you to be good to others. This did not happen for John and I believe this lead to a lot of drug and alcohol use. John probably simply using drugs and alcohol to abuse himself maybe even picking up where others abusive behavior left off. John is trying to change his mind and to get rid of these fantasies. I think it shows his strength and will to do so by coming forward. It also shows bravery to admit to the world who he is. I wish him a full recovery and I do believe he is working hard toward that. John if you read this thanks again for your honesty and good luck with your book. If you need someone to talk with just let me know, Nic

  • Erin

    Erin Annapolis, MD

    I have been listening to you guys for a while but this was the first episode (s) I just had to go online and research. I'm so glad everyone seems to feel the same way... so hard to listen to and then utterly shocked by the phone call with John. I agree with Nic- I respect his honesty and as long as its true he hasn't acted on it, his honesty can probably help with research and learning about the psyche behind serial rapists/murderers. These were two great episodes and got me through my late night at work last night and early morning at work this morning!

    I have been listening to you guys for a while but this was the first episode (s) I just had to go online and research. I'm so glad everyone seems to feel the same way... so hard to listen to and then utterly shocked by the phone call with John. I agree with Nic- I respect his honesty and as long as its true he hasn't acted on it, his honesty can probably help with research and learning about the psyche behind serial rapists/murderers. These were two great episodes and got me through my late night at work last night and early morning at work this morning!

  • Kathy

    Kathy Chicago

    Nic, I appreciate your thoughtful and compassionate perspective. John had to overcome a difficult upbringing and so much more than we know. Thanks again for all you do. I hope you can cover Richard Speck sometime.

    Nic, I appreciate your thoughtful and compassionate perspective. John had to overcome a difficult upbringing and so much more than we know.

    Thanks again for all you do. I hope you can cover Richard Speck sometime.

  • MG

    MG Texas

    There is a difference between exploitation and catharsis. This episode was exploitative and pretty sickening. I always like Pacino's quote from Insomnia when it comes to why. "You're about as mysterious to me as a blocked toilet is to a fucking plumber. Reasons for doing what you did? Who gives a fuck?"

    There is a difference between exploitation and catharsis. This episode was exploitative and pretty sickening. I always like Pacino's quote from Insomnia when it comes to why. "You're about as mysterious to me as a blocked toilet is to a fucking plumber. Reasons for doing what you did? Who gives a fuck?"

  • wendy

    wendy houston

    and I do hope John is ok and is receiving any mental health services he needs.

    and I do hope John is ok and is receiving any mental health services he needs.

  • Andy

    Andy Kansas City

    These episodes raise some serious ethical issues. This time, the narrative degenerated from a discussion of true crime into fan service for a sadistic murderer. You actually recommended John's book? A guy who was selling Shawcross's perv art on ebay? I felt like I needed a shower after these episodes. You really jumped the shark, and have strayed into glorifying this vile crap. If your core audience liked this drivel, you need to reassess to whom you're catering. Normal people do not want to hear the mutually admiring correspondence between these two freaks. At this point you're actively encouraging aberrant behavior and exploiting people's deaths. You need to reassess.

    These episodes raise some serious ethical issues. This time, the narrative degenerated from a discussion of true crime into fan service for a sadistic murderer. You actually recommended John's book? A guy who was selling Shawcross's perv art on ebay? I felt like I needed a shower after these episodes. You really jumped the shark, and have strayed into glorifying this vile crap. If your core audience liked this drivel, you need to reassess to whom you're catering. Normal people do not want to hear the mutually admiring correspondence between these two freaks. At this point you're actively encouraging aberrant behavior and exploiting people's deaths. You need to reassess.

  • True Crime Garage

    True Crime Garage

    Andy, It's a case study. Nic

    Andy,
    It's a case study.
    Nic

  • Mark

    Mark tX

    I have to agree with Andy. It seems that you guys are really starting to rely on the easy go-to gratuitous "case studies." I enjoy mysteries, I like to deduce who might have committed a crime and why. Cases like this and the BTK killer are simply the equivalent of the Saw movies. There is no learning to take place, just the sickening macabre. I also wonder what kind of people draw entertainment from such things.

    I have to agree with Andy. It seems that you guys are really starting to rely on the easy go-to gratuitous "case studies." I enjoy mysteries, I like to deduce who might have committed a crime and why. Cases like this and the BTK killer are simply the equivalent of the Saw movies. There is no learning to take place, just the sickening macabre. I also wonder what kind of people draw entertainment from such things.

  • Lissa

    Lissa

    Nic & the Captain, Loved the show. You guys have definitely NOT jumped the shark. It seems some people are a little too sensitive for true crime. Nothing wrong with that, but perhaps they should stick to Ted Talks. Keep up the great work, gentlemen.

    Nic & the Captain,

    Loved the show. You guys have definitely NOT jumped the shark. It seems some people are a little too sensitive for true crime. Nothing wrong with that, but perhaps they should stick to Ted Talks.

    Keep up the great work, gentlemen.

  • Jay

    Jay Ohio

    You guys shouldn't of put that piece of crap on the air. He was making money off murder. Disappointed.

    You guys shouldn't of put that piece of crap on the air. He was making money off murder. Disappointed.

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