The Vanishing Man /// 177 /// 178

37 comments

  • Jesus

    Jesus Heaven

    The captain clearly masterbates while looking at porn on his computer and has considered wiping his hard drive to hide it. That’s cute!

    The captain clearly masterbates while looking at porn on his computer and has considered wiping his hard drive to hide it. That’s cute!

  • Destiny

    Destiny

    Heard you guys say that you haven’t ever heard of a school shooting being done by a female. The first school shooting was carried out by Brenda Ann Spencer. She did it because “she didn’t like Mondays”

    Heard you guys say that you haven’t ever heard of a school shooting being done by a female. The first school shooting was carried out by Brenda Ann Spencer. She did it because “she didn’t like Mondays”

  • Kelly

    Kelly New Hampshire

    I hate to burst your bubbles BUT, I can guarantee you that I would smell a cigarette having been smoked in my car for probably weeks after it happened. I definitely have an obnoxious sense of smell, but I don’t think it’s that far fetched to think the smell of a smoke wouldn’t have dissipated over a few days!

    I hate to burst your bubbles BUT, I can guarantee you that I would smell a cigarette having been smoked in my car for probably weeks after it happened. I definitely have an obnoxious sense of smell, but I don’t think it’s that far fetched to think the smell of a smoke wouldn’t have dissipated over a few days!

  • Satan

    Satan Hell

    Dear Captain Don't listen to him. Masturbating is a nature thing. He can't even spell it right. Your doing a hell of a job and if you wipe your hard drive you will never find that Foot video you love so much. Keep it real Satan

    Dear Captain Don't listen to him. Masturbating is a nature thing. He can't even spell it right. Your doing a hell of a job and if you wipe your hard drive you will never find that Foot video you love so much.

    Keep it real
    Satan

  • Sarah

    Sarah

    For the Captain - you haven't heard of any other female school shooters? There's a famous one named Brenda Ann Spencer, who shot at elementary school kids from her house across the street in California back in 1979, when she was 16. She killed two people and injured 8 or 9 others, and when they asked her why she did it, she shrugged and said, "I don't like Mondays." That line inspired Bob Geldof to write the song for his band, the Boomtown Rats. She's still in prison.

    For the Captain - you haven't heard of any other female school shooters? There's a famous one named Brenda Ann Spencer, who shot at elementary school kids from her house across the street in California back in 1979, when she was 16. She killed two people and injured 8 or 9 others, and when they asked her why she did it, she shrugged and said, "I don't like Mondays." That line inspired Bob Geldof to write the song for his band, the Boomtown Rats. She's still in prison.

  • Sarah

    Sarah Scioto

    I heard Captain mention he didn't know of too many female school shooters. Brenda Spencer is a rarity among an already rare group. When asked why she opened fire on an elementary school, she replied, "I don't like Mondays." This became the title of a Boomtown Rats' song, written and performed by Bob Geldof.

    I heard Captain mention he didn't know of too many female school shooters. Brenda Spencer is a rarity among an already rare group. When asked why she opened fire on an elementary school, she replied, "I don't like Mondays." This became the title of a Boomtown Rats' song, written and performed by Bob Geldof.

  • Brooke

    Brooke New Hampshire

    I thought the Slovenian spy thing was pretty far fetched at first but one thing that did stand out to me when you came back to it was the cigarette. Yugoslavian countries are very similar to the 70/80s when it comes to smoking from my experience. Culturally it is normal, they are still smoking at the dinner table, with children in tow, etc. If he were traveling with a person native to that region it might have been normal for them to smoke with out considering the other passenger and they wouldn’t think twice about cigarette smoke lingering in a vehicle and being a red flag to the police.

    I thought the Slovenian spy thing was pretty far fetched at first but one thing that did stand out to me when you came back to it was the cigarette. Yugoslavian countries are very similar to the 70/80s when it comes to smoking from my experience. Culturally it is normal, they are still smoking at the dinner table, with children in tow, etc. If he were traveling with a person native to that region it might have been normal for them to smoke with out considering the other passenger and they wouldn’t think twice about cigarette smoke lingering in a vehicle and being a red flag to the police.

  • Michelle

    Michelle Tennessee

    Do we know for a fact, that the daughter wasn't "in on" his disappearance. Like, where is she now? Has she left the country?

    Do we know for a fact, that the daughter wasn't "in on" his disappearance. Like, where is she now? Has she left the country?

  • Corrections

    Corrections

    Slovenia was part of Yugoslavia, which was never part of the USSR - it was a separate communist state; so, he did not travel, "into the Soviet Union." Also, Yugoslavia no longer exists - it is not, "now part of Slovenia."

    Slovenia was part of Yugoslavia, which was never part of the USSR - it was a separate communist state; so, he did not travel, "into the Soviet Union." Also, Yugoslavia no longer exists - it is not, "now part of Slovenia."

  • Chris

    Chris Minneapolis

    It was mentioned that the timing to disappear was odd, with him set to collect a pension. It seems like perfect timing. It was said that he had a good relationship with us daughter, no? So, he’s got his cash hidden away, and is planning to disappear. Perhaps this is a situation where, once he is declared dead, the pension would go to his daughter? If so, maybe she knew and played the part well, or maybe she didn’t know, and he just wanted to set it up so she was taken care of. Still listening to ep. 2, so perhaps you guys mention it.

    It was mentioned that the timing to disappear was odd, with him set to collect a pension. It seems like perfect timing.
    It was said that he had a good relationship with us daughter, no? So, he’s got his cash hidden away, and is planning to disappear. Perhaps this is a situation where, once he is declared dead, the pension would go to his daughter? If so, maybe she knew and played the part well, or maybe she didn’t know, and he just wanted to set it up so she was taken care of.
    Still listening to ep. 2, so perhaps you guys mention it.

  • Reb

    Reb Washington, DC

    As always, another great episode. And so many rabbit holes... 1. Over the years, I have seen many new employees truly horrified by what they found on the search histories, saved files, etc. left from the former owner of their laptops. "How to erase a hard drive" doesn't strike me as a weird search for a pending retiree. Especially at a small county office that doesn't have a robust IT department to rely on. 2. I remember hearing, but couldn't find, that he was already planning a long retirement trip to Slovenia. Would complicate the Spy Theory if true. 3. Adoptive parents love their children, too. I come from a mixed family, and sometimes I feel they love my adoptive sister more! (She is the Good One that doesn't waste precious work hours listening to my Drinking-Buddies-by-Proxy talk about true crimes.) 4. There is NO WAY I would believe he committed suicide. He would have experienced the pain this caused his nephew and rest of family. By all accounts he loved his family/lady friend/colleagues. I have a tremendously hard time thinking he would re-indict that pain. 5. While I don't necessarily buy into the Sandusky angle, the investigation that brought him down began a long time before 2011, and the Monster's accusations that brought him down were in the early 2000s. 6. I think The Captain brings up a really good point about his banking. How was he cashing his checks? There would be some telling banking record one way or another about his income and outcome. If he wasn't depositing his check in his known bank account, the US Government would be able to immediately track exactly where he was cashing his check one way or another. I am thinking he was either a spend thrift like no ones business, or was not cashing his paychecks at all. Either way, the government would KNOW THIS. 6.5. Why was his car in his girlfriends name? THAT seems really key to me. It seems to me that this would be something you would do if you were no longer around and wanted to make sure that you were leaving her with an asset. 7. While I like the idea that he is living out his 70s in a sea side villa on the Adriatic, that also means he is total Douch Canoe for hurting so many people. 8. Geographic proximity and timing has always made me wonder if there is any relationship to the Jonathan Luna murder. You guys are the Bees Knees. Have you thought about covering Relisha Rudd (a case that could be resolved with enough publicity, at least for closure) or (as I keep annoyingly nagging on this forum), the murder of Michael Franke, where an out-side-Oregon perspective on the case would be intersting. Also, the weird feet of the Vancouver BC beaches.

    As always, another great episode. And so many rabbit holes...
    1. Over the years, I have seen many new employees truly horrified by what they found on the search histories, saved files, etc. left from the former owner of their laptops. "How to erase a hard drive" doesn't strike me as a weird search for a pending retiree. Especially at a small county office that doesn't have a robust IT department to rely on.
    2. I remember hearing, but couldn't find, that he was already planning a long retirement trip to Slovenia. Would complicate the Spy Theory if true.
    3. Adoptive parents love their children, too. I come from a mixed family, and sometimes I feel they love my adoptive sister more! (She is the Good One that doesn't waste precious work hours listening to my Drinking-Buddies-by-Proxy talk about true crimes.)
    4. There is NO WAY I would believe he committed suicide. He would have experienced the pain this caused his nephew and rest of family. By all accounts he loved his family/lady friend/colleagues. I have a tremendously hard time thinking he would re-indict that pain.
    5. While I don't necessarily buy into the Sandusky angle, the investigation that brought him down began a long time before 2011, and the Monster's accusations that brought him down were in the early 2000s.
    6. I think The Captain brings up a really good point about his banking. How was he cashing his checks? There would be some telling banking record one way or another about his income and outcome. If he wasn't depositing his check in his known bank account, the US Government would be able to immediately track exactly where he was cashing his check one way or another. I am thinking he was either a spend thrift like no ones business, or was not cashing his paychecks at all. Either way, the government would KNOW THIS.
    6.5. Why was his car in his girlfriends name? THAT seems really key to me. It seems to me that this would be something you would do if you were no longer around and wanted to make sure that you were leaving her with an asset.
    7. While I like the idea that he is living out his 70s in a sea side villa on the Adriatic, that also means he is total Douch Canoe for hurting so many people.
    8. Geographic proximity and timing has always made me wonder if there is any relationship to the Jonathan Luna murder.
    You guys are the Bees Knees. Have you thought about covering Relisha Rudd (a case that could be resolved with enough publicity, at least for closure) or (as I keep annoyingly nagging on this forum), the murder of Michael Franke, where an out-side-Oregon perspective on the case would be intersting. Also, the weird feet of the Vancouver BC beaches.

  • D

    D London, UK

    Ha, leave it to Renner to think everyone who can't be found has walked away to start a new life (and is/was a spy and a time traveller, no less). The fact that the laptop was found in the water does not necessary mean he jumped with it. He could've simply thrown it into the water to get rid of it because there was something there he did not know how to erase (considering he wasn't particularly computer savvy).

    Ha, leave it to Renner to think everyone who can't be found has walked away to start a new life (and is/was a spy and a time traveller, no less).

    The fact that the laptop was found in the water does not necessary mean he jumped with it. He could've simply thrown it into the water to get rid of it because there was something there he did not know how to erase (considering he wasn't particularly computer savvy).

  • Ashley

    Ashley TN

    I would love to hear you guys cover the murders of Channon Christian and Chris Newsom from Knoxville, TN. This really shook the city/state and I think you guys would do the case and the victims justice.

    I would love to hear you guys cover the murders of Channon Christian and Chris Newsom from Knoxville, TN. This really shook the city/state and I think you guys would do the case and the victims justice.

  • Rachel

    Rachel Utah

    If you buy into the CIA story then why would he need to search the internet or ask people how to wipe his hard drive. His CIA handler couldn’t tell him how to do that? Not likely

    If you buy into the CIA story then why would he need to search the internet or ask people how to wipe his hard drive. His CIA handler couldn’t tell him how to do that? Not likely

  • Louise

    Louise Michigan

    Great episode as always guys. Did he take a bribe to initially not pursue the Sandusky case, or something similar? There may have been traces of this on his hard drive. I think he did something shady and he staged his disappearance.

    Great episode as always guys. Did he take a bribe to initially not pursue the Sandusky case, or something similar? There may have been traces of this on his hard drive. I think he did something shady and he staged his disappearance.

  • Merry

    Merry Mechanicsburg, PA

    I remember when this first happened; I had just moved to PA. A few years later, I found myself having to go through Lewisburg (it's on the way to NY and Williamsport PA). I've seen signs for street of shops. I was bothered by the characterization of State College having a very small police department - at least that is what I heard Jeremy Renner say. I also agree with the above person; if you can follow his money, we would learn so very much. I also think that his girlfriend needs to be interviewed about his finances (and why she didn't think it was weird that his car was in her name).

    I remember when this first happened; I had just moved to PA. A few years later, I found myself having to go through Lewisburg (it's on the way to NY and Williamsport PA). I've seen signs for street of shops. I was bothered by the characterization of State College having a very small police department - at least that is what I heard Jeremy Renner say. I also agree with the above person; if you can follow his money, we would learn so very much. I also think that his girlfriend needs to be interviewed about his finances (and why she didn't think it was weird that his car was in her name).

  • True Crime Garage

    True Crime Garage

    Rachel you make a very good point! At the very least he wouldn't be asking other citizens he would ask his contact/handler. Cheers Nic

    Rachel you make a very good point! At the very least he wouldn't be asking other citizens he would ask his contact/handler.
    Cheers Nic

  • True Crime Garage

    True Crime Garage

    Hi Merry, Sorry for the small police department comment. At first, I suspected I as the one to have said that but you say James Renner did. I know I was at least thinking it. That's how it was reported to those of us out of state that this was handled by the tiny campus patrol. What I will say on their behalf regardless of the size of the department... When I was going through some stuff I felt like they did a pretty thorough job with a lot of the later follow up portions of the investigation. They worked several angles, spending time and money on leads that at first looked promising. There were several of these leads we didn't get to on the show but these were leads that would have taken the direction of the investigation out of the state several times. Nic

    Hi Merry,
    Sorry for the small police department comment. At first, I suspected I as the one to have said that but you say James Renner did. I know I was at least thinking it. That's how it was reported to those of us out of state that this was handled by the tiny campus patrol. What I will say on their behalf regardless of the size of the department... When I was going through some stuff I felt like they did a pretty thorough job with a lot of the later follow up portions of the investigation. They worked several angles, spending time and money on leads that at first looked promising. There were several of these leads we didn't get to on the show but these were leads that would have taken the direction of the investigation out of the state several times.
    Nic

  • Amanda

    Amanda Pennsylvania

    I have always felt his disappearance was related to the Sandusky case. How-- I'm not sure. Maybe part of a cover-up or possibly working towards an indictment. I don't know if everybody outside of PA realizes how huge this case was and still is today. There are extreme feelings on both sides of it, especially when Paterno is brought into the mix. It would be interesting to know if his paychecks we're direct deposited and into what account. I enjoyed listening to these last two episodes!

    I have always felt his disappearance was related to the Sandusky case. How-- I'm not sure. Maybe part of a cover-up or possibly working towards an indictment. I don't know if everybody outside of PA realizes how huge this case was and still is today. There are extreme feelings on both sides of it, especially when Paterno is brought into the mix. It would be interesting to know if his paychecks we're direct deposited and into what account. I enjoyed listening to these last two episodes!

  • J. J. in Phila

    J. J. in Phila Philadelphia

    [quote=Michelle] Do we know for a fact, that the daughter wasn't "in on" his disappearance. Like, where is she now? Has she left the country? [/quote] She was finishing school in the Seattle area when her father disappeared. She is still there, and working in her field.

    Michelle wrote:

    Do we know for a fact, that the daughter wasn't "in on" his disappearance. Like, where is she now? Has she left the country?

    She was finishing school in the Seattle area when her father disappeared. She is still there, and working in her field.

  • Kevin M

    Kevin M Providence RI

    Great show. Wouldn't it be way easier to wreck a hard drive by actually wrecking it? It seems to me that physically destroying and ultimately disposing of it in a way in which no one will find it, is far more effective then googling how to wreck one and then throwing it into the river to be found (twice). If he had time to remove the HD then why wouldn't you just throw it in a random trash bin? Also I'm the book that stopped that bullet in the school shooting was Infinite Jest.

    Great show.
    Wouldn't it be way easier to wreck a hard drive by actually wrecking it? It seems to me that physically destroying and ultimately disposing of it in a way in which no one will find it, is far more effective then googling how to wreck one and then throwing it into the river to be found (twice). If he had time to remove the HD then why wouldn't you just throw it in a random trash bin?
    Also I'm the book that stopped that bullet in the school shooting was Infinite Jest.

  • J. J. in Phila

    J. J. in Phila Philadelphia, obviously

    [quote=Chris] It was mentioned that the timing to disappear was odd, with him set to collect a pension. It seems like perfect timing. It was said that he had a good relationship with us daughter, no? So, he’s got his cash hidden away, and is planning to disappear. Perhaps this is a situation where, once he is declared dead, the pension would go to his daughter? If so, maybe she knew and played the part well, or maybe she didn’t know, and he just wanted to set it up so she was taken care of. Still listening to ep. 2, so perhaps you guys mention it. [/quote] His heirs, which included his daughter, did get a lucrative death benefit from his pension. However, she was the one who filed to declare Gricar dead, and did so just over 6 years later. If she wanted his money that badly, she could have to have done this earlier. From what I've heard about the pension, had Gricar retired and died even soon after that, the death benefit would have been less.

    Chris wrote:

    It was mentioned that the timing to disappear was odd, with him set to collect a pension. It seems like perfect timing.
    It was said that he had a good relationship with us daughter, no? So, he’s got his cash hidden away, and is planning to disappear. Perhaps this is a situation where, once he is declared dead, the pension would go to his daughter? If so, maybe she knew and played the part well, or maybe she didn’t know, and he just wanted to set it up so she was taken care of.
    Still listening to ep. 2, so perhaps you guys mention it.

    His heirs, which included his daughter, did get a lucrative death benefit from his pension. However, she was the one who filed to declare Gricar dead, and did so just over 6 years later. If she wanted his money that badly, she could have to have done this earlier.

    From what I've heard about the pension, had Gricar retired and died even soon after that, the death benefit would have been less.

  • J. J. in Phila

    J. J. in Phila Philadelphia, obviously

    The department that was investigating was the Bellefonte Police Department. Bellefonte is the county seat, where the Courthouse and the DA's Office is located; it is also the the town, borough, where Gricar lived. Centre County is a county, but it includes numerous municipalities, styled boroughs and townships. State College is one of these municipalities as is Bellefonte; both are boroughs. Both have their own police departments. Unlike other states, the county sheriff is generally not involved in investigations; the are responsible for serving papers, and providing jail and court security. They do not even patrol. State College, with a population of over 42 K, is the largest borough in the state. Bellefonte, also a borough, had a population of just under 6,200 in the last census. They have a smaller police force than State College.

    The department that was investigating was the Bellefonte Police Department. Bellefonte is the county seat, where the Courthouse and the DA's Office is located; it is also the the town, borough, where Gricar lived.

    Centre County is a county, but it includes numerous municipalities, styled boroughs and townships. State College is one of these municipalities as is Bellefonte; both are boroughs. Both have their own police departments. Unlike other states, the county sheriff is generally not involved in investigations; the are responsible for serving papers, and providing jail and court security. They do not even patrol.

    State College, with a population of over 42 K, is the largest borough in the state. Bellefonte, also a borough, had a population of just under 6,200 in the last census. They have a smaller police force than State College.

  • True Crime Garage

    True Crime Garage

    Go Eagles! Nic

    Go Eagles! Nic

  • Tony Gricar

    Tony Gricar USA

    I'm listening to the first episode and since I've heard the same inaccuracy used twice re: my own thoughts, I figured I should jump in. At no time did I ever think my own father's death was anything but a suicide. In his case, there was a documented history of depression, and other physical evidence, and I've never thought otherwise. Tony Gricar

    I'm listening to the first episode and since I've heard the same inaccuracy used twice re: my own thoughts, I figured I should jump in.

    At no time did I ever think my own father's death was anything but a suicide. In his case, there was a documented history of depression, and other physical evidence, and I've never thought otherwise.

    Tony Gricar

  • True Crime Garage

    True Crime Garage

    Thank you Tony for clarifying. That opinion we shared was from a local newspaper report from just days after Ray went missing. I apologize for passing along an inaccurate report and sorry for your loss. - Nic

    Thank you Tony for clarifying. That opinion we shared was from a local newspaper report from just days after Ray went missing. I apologize for passing along an inaccurate report and sorry for your loss. - Nic

  • Tony Gricar

    Tony Gricar USA

    Nic & The Captain, you gents did a fine job. To address some of the listener comments above: - Contrary to Euro culture, our 100% Slovenian family only had two smokers. One died in the early 80's, the other quit at that time. - Re: the comment by Reb that a staged walkaway would have been unbelievably cruel, I completely agree that it would be profoundly so. It's something I've carried with me since Day 1, we've discussed at length with LE and reporters, and which to me diminishes the theory. I found it inexplicable that Nic or the Captain brought this up and that Renner had never considered it (while apparently putting much thought into Ray being a spy for or against the US). Seems common sense and painfully obvious to me. Because Mr. Renner really ...I'll just say "struggled"... with facts, here are some cleanups: Renner said that an eyewitness/employee thinks she saw Ray that morning in the passenger seat of a car that was not his. That would indicate Ray was in a car driven by someone else, which is a rather important detail. The reality is that the witness said the person who looked like Ray was the driver and the only person in the car. This was the most credible witness we had and one that the investigator completely blew. That was one of many missteps by that initial investigator. Renner, re: the Macedonian consulate and going to "The Mother Country". Basic geography (just look at a map) and geopolitical knowledge is all one needs to know to see why his spy theory defies reasonable logic. I genuinely spit coffee when he floated that one. Renner, re: Ray's 2 trips to Slovenia. First off, there's absolutely nothing strange about taking a trip to Slovenia. It is one of the most beautiful countries on this planet. Never seen it? Check out the Netflix series "Chef's Table" S02E05 "Ana Ros" and then visit and eat her food. While you're there, visit Croatia and Italy. If you make the trip, Macedonia, you may discover, isn't in the cards, unless, you know, you want to drive through four (4) other countries to get there. Maybe the Macedonian Consulate in Detroit can help with that. ;) Additionally, while Renner, who is a true crime journalist/writer "expert", was curious about the reason for the Slovenia trips, I would think any armchair detective could piece together the reasons for those. Spoiler Alert: He didn't go alone. One trip, timeline-wise, should be forehead-smackingly obvious. The other trip? The family photos from those trips make it look like a good time was had by all and my Grandmother cherished the memory. Renner said Ray was "obsessed with the Mel Wiley case and brought it up with multiple coworkers leading up to the disappearance.". No, he didn't bring it up in the days/weeks/months leading to his disappearance, but stating as such certainly brings about an eyebrow raise for the listeners. It was mentioned that years prior he had talked about the case with people in his office. It was a regionally famous case that occurred within the greater Cleveland area. We all knew about it. Renner said, "His account only had a couple hundred dollars in it.". I'm not going to go into specifics, but it certainly was not that. My issue here is that such a statement, like some of Renner's others, can lead people to think, "Ohhhh, that certainly is odd.". The amount that was in the account would not lead people to have that reaction. Renners said, "Ray was seen at the shops with an unidentified beautiful, attractive, woman. Who was she?". No, a man that people think resembled Ray was seen with a woman. Ray was not see with a woman. There is a distinct difference. I can also say that the accounts from the antique mall grew in clarity as the publicity grew. Do I think Ray was in Lewisburg? I have no reason to think otherwise, however the eyewitness accounts being credible simply means that the eyewitnesses, themselves, are credible people. I said then, and I still say it now, that if you know anything about Bucknell University...on Parents Weekend, no less...you couldn't throw a stick without hitting a 50something year old man in a blue fleece. Even as we stood in the park that day, assisting law enforcement, or later doing walk and talk media interviews, we were amused by how many Mini Coopers we saw. So, while he may have been there that day, I put very little stock in the accounts, especially re: the man and woman (who gets more beautiful with each telling. lol). And, finally, there is this closing bit from Mr. Renner: "What I picture is his sexy CIA handler saying, "Well, Ray, it's been a trip. Take one last look at Happy Valley before I take you back to Slovenia." and "The more I think about this case, as weird as it sounds, I lean towards the spy theory. I'd love to go to Slovenia and just look around.". Just...wow.

    Nic & The Captain, you gents did a fine job.

    To address some of the listener comments above:

    - Contrary to Euro culture, our 100% Slovenian family only had two smokers. One died in the early 80's, the other quit at that time.

    - Re: the comment by Reb that a staged walkaway would have been unbelievably cruel, I completely agree that it would be profoundly so. It's something I've carried with me since Day 1, we've discussed at length with LE and reporters, and which to me diminishes the theory. I found it inexplicable that Nic or the Captain brought this up and that Renner had never considered it (while apparently putting much thought into Ray being a spy for or against the US). Seems common sense and painfully obvious to me.

    Because Mr. Renner really ...I'll just say "struggled"... with facts, here are some cleanups:

    Renner said that an eyewitness/employee thinks she saw Ray that morning in the passenger seat of a car that was not his. That would indicate Ray was in a car driven by someone else, which is a rather important detail. The reality is that the witness said the person who looked like Ray was the driver and the only person in the car. This was the most credible witness we had and one that the investigator completely blew. That was one of many missteps by that initial investigator.

    Renner, re: the Macedonian consulate and going to "The Mother Country". Basic geography (just look at a map) and geopolitical knowledge is all one needs to know to see why his spy theory defies reasonable logic. I genuinely spit coffee when he floated that one.

    Renner, re: Ray's 2 trips to Slovenia. First off, there's absolutely nothing strange about taking a trip to Slovenia. It is one of the most beautiful countries on this planet. Never seen it? Check out the Netflix series "Chef's Table" S02E05 "Ana Ros" and then visit and eat her food. While you're there, visit Croatia and Italy. If you make the trip, Macedonia, you may discover, isn't in the cards, unless, you know, you want to drive through four (4) other countries to get there. Maybe the Macedonian Consulate in Detroit can help with that. wink

    Additionally, while Renner, who is a true crime journalist/writer "expert", was curious about the reason for the Slovenia trips, I would think any armchair detective could piece together the reasons for those. Spoiler Alert: He didn't go alone. One trip, timeline-wise, should be forehead-smackingly obvious. The other trip? The family photos from those trips make it look like a good time was had by all and my Grandmother cherished the memory.

    Renner said Ray was "obsessed with the Mel Wiley case and brought it up with multiple coworkers leading up to the disappearance.". No, he didn't bring it up in the days/weeks/months leading to his disappearance, but stating as such certainly brings about an eyebrow raise for the listeners. It was mentioned that years prior he had talked about the case with people in his office. It was a regionally famous case that occurred within the greater Cleveland area. We all knew about it.

    Renner said, "His account only had a couple hundred dollars in it.". I'm not going to go into specifics, but it certainly was not that. My issue here is that such a statement, like some of Renner's others, can lead people to think, "Ohhhh, that certainly is odd.". The amount that was in the account would not lead people to have that reaction.

    Renners said, "Ray was seen at the shops with an unidentified beautiful, attractive, woman. Who was she?". No, a man that people think resembled Ray was seen with a woman. Ray was not see with a woman. There is a distinct difference. I can also say that the accounts from the antique mall grew in clarity as the publicity grew.

    Do I think Ray was in Lewisburg? I have no reason to think otherwise, however the eyewitness accounts being credible simply means that the eyewitnesses, themselves, are credible people. I said then, and I still say it now, that if you know anything about Bucknell University...on Parents Weekend, no less...you couldn't throw a stick without hitting a 50something year old man in a blue fleece. Even as we stood in the park that day, assisting law enforcement, or later doing walk and talk media interviews, we were amused by how many Mini Coopers we saw. So, while he may have been there that day, I put very little stock in the accounts, especially re: the man and woman (who gets more beautiful with each telling. lol).

    And, finally, there is this closing bit from Mr. Renner: "What I picture is his sexy CIA handler saying, "Well, Ray, it's been a trip. Take one last look at Happy Valley before I take you back to Slovenia." and "The more I think about this case, as weird as it sounds, I lean towards the spy theory. I'd love to go to Slovenia and just look around.". Just...wow.

  • mg

    mg teXas

    Depression is a condition that if you don't have it, you don't get it. It makes family people, wealthy people, successful people, apparently happy people, do hard to believe things, like commit suicide. If this guy was experiencing severe depression, suicide is a very likely option. My guess is that he did commit suicide. As for his computer, I think he made the decision to commit suicide but did not want the items on his computer discovered. Therefore he took the hard drive out to make sure it would be ruined as well. The other options are just not plausible. And Yugoslavia was not affiliated with the USSR at that time, so the idea that Slovenia/Yugoslavia was spying on Happy Valley Pennsylvania, get real.

    Depression is a condition that if you don't have it, you don't get it. It makes family people, wealthy people, successful people, apparently happy people, do hard to believe things, like commit suicide. If this guy was experiencing severe depression, suicide is a very likely option. My guess is that he did commit suicide. As for his computer, I think he made the decision to commit suicide but did not want the items on his computer discovered. Therefore he took the hard drive out to make sure it would be ruined as well. The other options are just not plausible. And Yugoslavia was not affiliated with the USSR at that time, so the idea that Slovenia/Yugoslavia was spying on Happy Valley Pennsylvania, get real.

  • Anonymous

    Anonymous

    I loved your discussion of the 2005 disappearance of Ray Gricar, the District Attorney for Centre County, Pennsylvania in episodes 177 and 178. But I have to say I’d buy even the “time travel” explanation for Mr. Gricar’s disappearance before the “spy fleeing the country” rabbit hole dug by your guest on the program, James Renner, who seems to have been experiencing geopolitical confusion. In short: (1) Slovenia, one of the 6 constituent republics of the former Yugoslavia, declared its independence from Yugoslavia in June 1991; Macedonia, another country, did so in September 1991. So why would Mr. Gricar travel to Southfield, Michigan, where there was a reported post-disappearance sighting, to apply for a visa from the Macedonia Consulate General located there? Wrong consulate, wrong country. (2) There is no particular significance in Mr. Gricar’s travel to Yugoslavia in the 1970s. The country was not part of the USSR or a Soviet satellite as a member of the Warsaw Pact. The country had gone its own so-called “non-aligned” way after the Tito-Stalin break in 1948. Mr. Gricar’s ethnic roots were there and, even then, Yugoslavia was a major (and inexpensive) European tourist destination. A young man enjoying a cheap European vacation while nosing around in the old country - I’ve done it myself. A footnote: The FBI and/or CIA that provided Mr. Renner with redacted material about Mr. Gricar in response to a FOIA request may have been covering up the extent to which they monitored foreign travel by US citizens. If those agencies could blush, they certainly should; meanwhile, they redact. (3) It is inconceivable that the District Attorney for Centre Country, Pennsylvania, would have had access to national security information of interest to a hostile intelligence service. If Mr. Gricar had moved on early in his career to the US State Department, US Department of Justice, DOD, or another federal agency - maybe. But 20+ years in Centre County government? If he was an asset, he was a wasted one. (4) The “tradecraft” displayed in Mr. Gricar’s disappearance/extraction would embarrass any intelligence agency worthy of the name. While the rabbits have been digging overtime on this one, this was most likely one of the some 45,000 suicides in this country every year, with men in Mr. Gricar’s demographic experiencing the highest rate, according to the American Society for Suicide Prevention. Our thoughts and prayers should go out to his family, loved ones, and colleagues. All that said, it was - as always - a great discussion. May the Garage’s cooler never run out! Pete (not a spy) from Alexandria, Virginia

    I loved your discussion of the 2005 disappearance of Ray Gricar, the District Attorney for Centre County, Pennsylvania in episodes 177 and 178. But I have to say I’d buy even the “time travel” explanation for Mr. Gricar’s disappearance before the “spy fleeing the country” rabbit hole dug by your guest on the program, James Renner, who seems to have been experiencing geopolitical confusion. In short:

    (1) Slovenia, one of the 6 constituent republics of the former Yugoslavia, declared its independence from Yugoslavia in June 1991; Macedonia, another country, did so in September 1991. So why would Mr. Gricar travel to Southfield, Michigan, where there was a reported post-disappearance sighting, to apply for a visa from the Macedonia Consulate General located there? Wrong consulate, wrong country.

    (2) There is no particular significance in Mr. Gricar’s travel to Yugoslavia in the 1970s. The country was not part of the USSR or a Soviet satellite as a member of the Warsaw Pact. The country had gone its own so-called “non-aligned” way after the Tito-Stalin break in 1948. Mr. Gricar’s ethnic roots were there and, even then, Yugoslavia was a major (and inexpensive) European tourist destination. A young man enjoying a cheap European vacation while nosing around in the old country - I’ve done it myself. A footnote: The FBI and/or CIA that provided Mr. Renner with redacted material about Mr. Gricar in response to a FOIA request may have been covering up the extent to which they monitored foreign travel by US citizens. If those agencies could blush, they certainly should; meanwhile, they redact.

    (3) It is inconceivable that the District Attorney for Centre Country, Pennsylvania, would have had access to national security information of interest to a hostile intelligence service. If Mr. Gricar had moved on early in his career to the US State Department, US Department of Justice, DOD, or another federal agency - maybe. But 20+ years in Centre County government? If he was an asset, he was a wasted one.

    (4) The “tradecraft” displayed in Mr. Gricar’s disappearance/extraction would embarrass any intelligence agency worthy of the name.

    While the rabbits have been digging overtime on this one, this was most likely one of the some 45,000 suicides in this country every year, with men in Mr. Gricar’s demographic experiencing the highest rate, according to the American Society for Suicide Prevention. Our thoughts and prayers should go out to his family, loved ones, and colleagues.

    All that said, it was - as always - a great discussion. May the Garage’s cooler never run out!

    Pete (not a spy) from Alexandria, Virginia

  • Barbara B.

    Barbara B.

    Such and interesting case and I do hope the family receives an answer someday. I found the book/time warp theory intriguing. Not sure I buy it but it did make me pull a Keanu, "Whoa".

    Such and interesting case and I do hope the family receives an answer someday.
    I found the book/time warp theory intriguing. Not sure I buy it but it did make me pull a Keanu, "Whoa".

  • J. J. in Phila

    J. J. in Phila Philadelphia, obviously

    [quote=Anonymous] (1) Slovenia, one of the 6 constituent republics of the former Yugoslavia, declared its independence from Yugoslavia in June 1991; Macedonia, another country, did so in September 1991. So why would Mr. Gricar travel to Southfield, Michigan, where there was a reported post-disappearance sighting, to apply for a visa from the Macedonia Consulate General located there? Wrong consulate, wrong country. Pete (not a spy) from Alexandria, Virginia [/quote] I agree with you about the spy aspect. To give some background, Deadspin did a FOIA request for Gricar. The got 1986 FBI background check; which is routine because Gricar could be involved in federal prosecutions. The file : https://www.scribd.com/document/262175443/FBI-file-Ray-Gricar The FBI in doing the background check, asked the CIA if they had any information on Gricar; asking the CIA was also routine. They responded, but the response was redacted from the publicly released document.. You can find more detail here: https://deadspin.com/5890077/what-is-the-cia-hiding-about-the-missing-da-who-didnt-prosecute-jerry-sandusky-in-1998-probably-nothing The redaction was unusual. In theory, the redaction could be of words "no record," but the people familiar with FOIA releases say that this in unusual. That does NOT mean that Gricar was a spy. My own theory is that Gricar was interviewed by the CIA after one of his European trips. Since 1949, the CIA does interview people, voluntarily, that have traveled in different countries. My GUESS is that it was something like that. While Yugoslavia was a Warsaw Pact country, it certainly was not an ally of the US, at the time. One of the possibilities, however, is that Gricar was there to get a visa, perhaps because he would be entering Europe through Macedonia. It is very possible to drive in less than 10 hours today, from the capital to capital; that would involve crossing three international borders. He could also fly out of Macedonia to Slovenia. There are two other factors regarding Southfield: 1. Southfield is about half hour drive from the Canadian border. 2. The sighting was on the Friday of the Memorial Day weekend. It is a time when a lot of people are traveling, and someone could lose himself in the crowd, as it were. It is also a day when fewer people are tuning on the news. Even if a news report would go out the same day saying "Keep your eyes pealed for Ray Gricar," it would have limited impact. None of that proves it was Ray Gricar.

    Anonymous wrote:

    (1) Slovenia, one of the 6 constituent republics of the former Yugoslavia, declared its independence from Yugoslavia in June 1991; Macedonia, another country, did so in September 1991. So why would Mr. Gricar travel to Southfield, Michigan, where there was a reported post-disappearance sighting, to apply for a visa from the Macedonia Consulate General located there? Wrong consulate, wrong country.

    Pete (not a spy) from Alexandria, Virginia

    I agree with you about the spy aspect. To give some background, Deadspin did a FOIA request for Gricar. The got 1986 FBI background check; which is routine because Gricar could be involved in federal prosecutions. The file : https://www.scribd.com/document/262175443/FBI-file-Ray-Gricar

    The FBI in doing the background check, asked the CIA if they had any information on Gricar; asking the CIA was also routine. They responded, but the response was redacted from the publicly released document.. You can find more detail here: https://deadspin.com/5890077/what-is-the-cia-hiding-about-the-missing-da-who-didnt-prosecute-jerry-sandusky-in-1998-probably-nothing

    The redaction was unusual. In theory, the redaction could be of words "no record," but the people familiar with FOIA releases say that this in unusual. That does NOT mean that Gricar was a spy.

    My own theory is that Gricar was interviewed by the CIA after one of his European trips. Since 1949, the CIA does interview people, voluntarily, that have traveled in different countries. My GUESS is that it was something like that. While Yugoslavia was a Warsaw Pact country, it certainly was not an ally of the US, at the time.

    One of the possibilities, however, is that Gricar was there to get a visa, perhaps because he would be entering Europe through Macedonia. It is very possible to drive in less than 10 hours today, from the capital to capital; that would involve crossing three international borders. He could also fly out of Macedonia to Slovenia.

    There are two other factors regarding Southfield:

    1. Southfield is about half hour drive from the Canadian border.

    2. The sighting was on the Friday of the Memorial Day weekend. It is a time when a lot of people are traveling, and someone could lose himself in the crowd, as it were. It is also a day when fewer people are tuning on the news. Even if a news report would go out the same day saying "Keep your eyes pealed for Ray Gricar," it would have limited impact.

    None of that proves it was Ray Gricar.

  • True Crime Garage

    True Crime Garage

    I want to thank everyone for their participation in this discussion, especially Tony Gricar. For those of you wondering, yes it has been verified, he is who he says he is. I also want to add that the Garage's friend Author James Renner was asked by us to present some of the stranger theories "out there." Meaning they are not his theories. These are theories others have presented and chased. Cheers to all! Tall cans in the air! Nic

    I want to thank everyone for their participation in this discussion, especially Tony Gricar. For those of you wondering, yes it has been verified, he is who he says he is. I also want to add that the Garage's friend Author James Renner was asked by us to present some of the stranger theories "out there." Meaning they are not his theories. These are theories others have presented and chased.
    Cheers to all! Tall cans in the air!
    Nic

  • Eric

    Eric Madison, WI

    So, maybe I missed it since I was listening to these episodes at work, but did they ever see what cell towers his phone pinged off of in the area? Was his car in the antiques mall parking lot all night long, or was he/someone possibly moving around the region and dumped the car there shortly before it was found, what with the cigarette ash/smell. I know his phone was off when it was found in the abandoned car, but maybe someone had it on over the course of the previous day/evening/morning the car was found...?

    So, maybe I missed it since I was listening to these episodes at work, but did they ever see what cell towers his phone pinged off of in the area? Was his car in the antiques mall parking lot all night long, or was he/someone possibly moving around the region and dumped the car there shortly before it was found, what with the cigarette ash/smell.

    I know his phone was off when it was found in the abandoned car, but maybe someone had it on over the course of the previous day/evening/morning the car was found...?

  • True Crime Garage

    True Crime Garage

    These are great questions Eric but unfortunately these are questions without answers. I truly believe the police know much more than what they have released. It's truly strange that this case was not solved- scary. Cheers Nic

    These are great questions Eric but unfortunately these are questions without answers. I truly believe the police know much more than what they have released. It's truly strange that this case was not solved- scary.
    Cheers Nic

  • Jordan

    Jordan Denton, TX

    I am having trouble listening to Part 2 episode 178 on Stitcher. It keeps giving me the error "There seems to be a problem buffering audio content" 03:23 minutes into the podcast. I've tried several different methods to fix, assuming it is user error, but none have worked. Am I the only one experiencing this issue?

    I am having trouble listening to Part 2 episode 178 on Stitcher. It keeps giving me the error "There seems to be a problem buffering audio content" 03:23 minutes into the podcast. I've tried several different methods to fix, assuming it is user error, but none have worked. Am I the only one experiencing this issue?

  • True Crime Garage

    True Crime Garage

    Jordan it sounds like stitcher is experiencing problems at the moment. Others have complained about other episodes today. Stitcher is on top of it and working out the kinks now. Cheers Nic

    Jordan it sounds like stitcher is experiencing problems at the moment. Others have complained about other episodes today. Stitcher is on top of it and working out the kinks now.
    Cheers Nic

  • Anonymous

    Anonymous

    Thanks for keeping Mr. Gricar’s disappearance in the media. A truly baffling case but mostly due to the scant evidence of his demise. I don’t flip flop on theories as I 100% believe this is a case of foul play. My basis for this theory is only that his daughter, friends, co-workers, and other family didn’t believe he would up and go, and for no apparent reason. Retirement was in sight. Certain aspects of the case feel like theyre staged. Professional hit? Someone close to him? Pleasant surprise to see TG pop in and share his wit on the commentary. Not surprising to see Mr. Knowitall “J.J.inPhila” making his appearance. I’d like to ask and hope TG pops back in to answer a couple questions. 1. Tony you say you believe 100% that your fathers death was ruled correctly (my condolences), yet you also said he was terrified of water. Logically making the river an oddity. It was also reported that Ray never believed the cause of death and was still in contact with LE in Ohio. If true why did he believe that? 2. Does anyone find it odd that Rays’s girlfriend at the time is now living with the top Admin, I.T. guy for Centre County from when Ray was DA? Timothy Boyde I believe is his name and they were neighbors back then. 3. Most important thing is that nothing ties Ray Gricar to Lewisburg other than the Mini & Laptop. Everything else is unverifiable. Researched this case for years, including the Sandusky angle that amounted to nothing. The Hells Angel theory was interesting but that fizzled out too. I pray someday the truth will be known for Rays family. God Bless

    Thanks for keeping Mr. Gricar’s disappearance in the media. A truly baffling case but mostly due to the scant evidence of his demise. I don’t flip flop on theories as I 100% believe this is a case of foul play. My basis for this theory is only that his daughter, friends, co-workers, and other family didn’t believe he would up and go, and for no apparent reason. Retirement was in sight. Certain aspects of the case feel like theyre staged. Professional hit? Someone close to him?

    Pleasant surprise to see TG pop in and share his wit on the commentary. Not surprising to see Mr. Knowitall “J.J.inPhila” making his appearance.

    I’d like to ask and hope TG pops back in to answer a couple questions.

    1. Tony you say you believe 100% that your fathers death was ruled correctly (my condolences), yet you also said he was terrified of water. Logically making the river an oddity. It was also reported that Ray never believed the cause of death and was still in contact with LE in Ohio. If true why did he believe that?

    2. Does anyone find it odd that Rays’s girlfriend at the time is now living with the top Admin, I.T. guy for Centre County from when Ray was DA? Timothy Boyde I believe is his name and they were neighbors back then.

    3. Most important thing is that nothing ties Ray Gricar to Lewisburg other than the Mini & Laptop. Everything else is unverifiable.

    Researched this case for years, including the Sandusky angle that amounted to nothing. The Hells Angel theory was interesting but that fizzled out too.

    I pray someday the truth will be known for Rays family. God Bless

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