True East Murders /// 165 /// 166

54 comments

  • Pokwok

    Pokwok Montreal

    Man, when I saw this episode on The Confession Tapes, it infuriated me to no end. Everybody who enjoys this podcast NEEDS to watch the entire Confession Tapes series - it's excellent in the extreme. Unlike Making a Murderer, it's really hard for me to imagine that any of the people featured in this series aren't innocent. It's all interviews and actual footage. The first episode about the true east murders is the most fascinating, definitely, but every episode is worth seeing. I've watched it several times already. We should keep in mind that not all police, prosecutors and judges are as deeply corrupt and maligned as the ones seen in the show, but man oh man does this show make me hate the criminal justice system in a very real way. A lot of these conspiracy-type documentary series are overly sensational, very leading and often just ridiculous. This one is not. It's staggeringly captivating. Folks should watch "Captive" as well, another true crime Netflix Original series. Also very very compelling and well made. Good episode though guys, I'm glad you covered this topic. Keep it up. Just had to make sure anybody who is a fan of this podcast appreciates just how worth watching The Confession Tapes are. False confessions are a very real problem, and we need all potential jurors (regular people like us) to understand that police interrogations and the 'confessions' that come from them should ALWAYS be taken with a huge grain of salt, and people need to understand that there are many many many circumstances where innocent people will confess to something they haven't done. Police interrogators are trained in manipulating people, and it is very easy for them to convince their 'perps' that the only way out of the horrible situation they've found themselves in is to tell the police what they want to hear. It's not unreasonable or unlikely in the slightest.

    Man, when I saw this episode on The Confession Tapes, it infuriated me to no end. Everybody who enjoys this podcast NEEDS to watch the entire Confession Tapes series - it's excellent in the extreme. Unlike Making a Murderer, it's really hard for me to imagine that any of the people featured in this series aren't innocent. It's all interviews and actual footage. The first episode about the true east murders is the most fascinating, definitely, but every episode is worth seeing. I've watched it several times already. We should keep in mind that not all police, prosecutors and judges are as deeply corrupt and maligned as the ones seen in the show, but man oh man does this show make me hate the criminal justice system in a very real way. A lot of these conspiracy-type documentary series are overly sensational, very leading and often just ridiculous. This one is not. It's staggeringly captivating. Folks should watch "Captive" as well, another true crime Netflix Original series. Also very very compelling and well made.

    Good episode though guys, I'm glad you covered this topic. Keep it up. Just had to make sure anybody who is a fan of this podcast appreciates just how worth watching The Confession Tapes are. False confessions are a very real problem, and we need all potential jurors (regular people like us) to understand that police interrogations and the 'confessions' that come from them should ALWAYS be taken with a huge grain of salt, and people need to understand that there are many many many circumstances where innocent people will confess to something they haven't done. Police interrogators are trained in manipulating people, and it is very easy for them to convince their 'perps' that the only way out of the horrible situation they've found themselves in is to tell the police what they want to hear. It's not unreasonable or unlikely in the slightest.

  • DWArabs

    DWArabs Dallas, TX

    Haven't watched the tapes yet(but I will). One thing I thought about when listening to the description of "overkill" on the father, and the likelihood of this crime being personal, is the relationship between the two boys. They seem to be very close, and perhaps that was a problem between them and the father, causing the rage. I don't condone in any way the whole "Mr. Big" method of obtaining a confession, but my gut says they are guilty. Off to research this case!

    Haven't watched the tapes yet(but I will). One thing I thought about when listening to the description of "overkill" on the father, and the likelihood of this crime being personal, is the relationship between the two boys. They seem to be very close, and perhaps that was a problem between them and the father, causing the rage. I don't condone in any way the whole "Mr. Big" method of obtaining a confession, but my gut says they are guilty. Off to research this case!

  • Patricia

    Patricia San Diego

    Looking forward to it! Do you mean you think they're 'innocent' or 'not guilty'?

    Looking forward to it!

    Do you mean you think they're 'innocent' or 'not guilty'?

  • Barbra

    Barbra Mendocino county ca

    I think Sebastian did it. Alone. I don’t think the son was there when the murders took place.

    I think Sebastian did it. Alone. I don’t think the son was there when the murders took place.

  • Yuval

    Yuval Middle East

    Hi guys! Great episodes as always. Very interesting. Have you ever considered the possibility that maybe the boys were romantically involved? It could be an additional motive. I just got that gut feeling for some reason. I agree that there is not enough evidence to convict them, sadly.

    Hi guys! Great episodes as always. Very interesting. Have you ever considered the possibility that maybe the boys were romantically involved? It could be an additional motive. I just got that gut feeling for some reason.
    I agree that there is not enough evidence to convict them, sadly.

  • M jones

    M jones Greenwood de

    Those kids are innocent one thing that points over all the sister is not dead they know it and don’t kill her it stops there if they didn’t know that’s one thing but they knew and didn’t finish that says innocence

    Those kids are innocent one thing that points over all the sister is not dead they know it and don’t kill her it stops there if they didn’t know that’s one thing but they knew and didn’t finish that says innocence

  • Tintin

    Tintin Willow Springs, MO

    Okay, I completely removed the coerced confessions and also removed two issues that bias me against Sebastian (the issue of Sebastian's arrogance and the issue of his extremely fake-sounding 911 call). Even after removing bias, I am coming up with a 50/50 split on the evidence that (for me) points toward guilt or innocense: GUILTY: 1. The "too coincidental" alibi-making long night out (a Tuesday night, no less) when the murder takes place. 2. The "too coincidental" murder and movie occuring at the same time. 3. The fact that they did not help Atif's sister. (Even if they were terrified, they'd make an effort to find her. Or, worst case scenario, they would have mentioned in the 911 call that she was still in the house and not safe!) 4. And, finally, Sebastian's "way too coincidental" use of a movie alibi for a previous crime. INNOCENCE: 1. No blood evidence on Sebastian or Atif. (Would a shower really get out "every" spot of blood?) 2. The messy, time consuming, and extreme weapon (a baseball bat). (For me, the weapon and overkill of the father suggest a hate crime.) 3. The flimsy financial motive. 4. The informant evidence of a potential hate crime against the father for his religious beliefs. The crime scene reads "hate crime" but the "unsaved" sister and the coincidences read "Atif and Sebstian." When I look at the facts and only the facts, not circumstancial evidence or bias against the character of either or both young men, my conclusion is not "proven" guilty. Trust the crime scene. Innocent people often look/act guilty and crazy coincidences happen. But how often do informants report death threats made against people who subsequently are murdered?! On a side note, in cases like the Menendez brothers, one brother was so consumed by guilt that he confessed. Outside of the coerced confessions, neither Atif nor Sebastian has confessed (that we know of). Unless both are sociopaths, I think one of them would have confessed by now.

    Okay, I completely removed the coerced confessions and also removed two issues that bias me against Sebastian (the issue of Sebastian's arrogance and the issue of his extremely fake-sounding 911 call). Even after removing bias, I am coming up with a 50/50 split on the evidence that (for me) points toward guilt or innocense:

    GUILTY:
    1. The "too coincidental" alibi-making long night out (a Tuesday night, no less) when the murder takes place.
    2. The "too coincidental" murder and movie occuring at the same time.
    3. The fact that they did not help Atif's sister. (Even if they were terrified, they'd make an effort to find her. Or, worst case scenario, they would have mentioned in the 911 call that she was still in the house and not safe!)
    4. And, finally, Sebastian's "way too coincidental" use of a movie alibi for a previous crime.

    INNOCENCE:
    1. No blood evidence on Sebastian or Atif. (Would a shower really get out "every" spot of blood?)
    2. The messy, time consuming, and extreme weapon (a baseball bat). (For me, the weapon and overkill of the father suggest a hate crime.)
    3. The flimsy financial motive.
    4. The informant evidence of a potential hate crime against the father for his religious beliefs.

    The crime scene reads "hate crime" but the "unsaved" sister and the coincidences read "Atif and Sebstian."

    When I look at the facts and only the facts, not circumstancial evidence or bias against the character of either or both young men, my conclusion is not "proven" guilty. Trust the crime scene. Innocent people often look/act guilty and crazy coincidences happen. But how often do informants report death threats made against people who subsequently are murdered?!

    On a side note, in cases like the Menendez brothers, one brother was so consumed by guilt that he confessed. Outside of the coerced confessions, neither Atif nor Sebastian has confessed (that we know of). Unless both are sociopaths, I think one of them would have confessed by now.

  • Sandy

    Sandy

    Guilty as charged. Basma was beat unconscious, and they assumed she was dead. By the time she regained partial consciousness and was moaning, Burns had showered and cleaned up, he could not approach her to finish her off without leaving evidence and risk ruining their carefully planned timeline. While I don’t agree with the Mr. Big sting, there was still enough evidence to convict these two...rightfully so. Burns tripped himself up when he stook the stand and had to admit to a history of insurance fraud, perpetrated by pretending he was at a movie. There are people wrongly convicted, Burns and Rafay are not among them. They are exactly where they belong.

    Guilty as charged. Basma was beat unconscious, and they assumed she was dead. By the time she regained partial consciousness and was moaning, Burns had showered and cleaned up, he could not approach her to finish her off without leaving evidence and risk ruining their carefully planned timeline. While I don’t agree with the Mr. Big sting, there was still enough evidence to convict these two...rightfully so. Burns tripped himself up when he stook the stand and had to admit to a history of insurance fraud, perpetrated by pretending he was at a movie. There are people wrongly convicted, Burns and Rafay are not among them. They are exactly where they belong.

  • Morgan

    Morgan Canada

    This one is really tough for me. The false confession is definitely a possibility, and I agree there was a miscarriage of justice allowing Canadian confession into the USA court room. But in a way, if they were so smart, why even let yourselves get involved with “mobsters” ? Seems so stupid, unless you aren’t scared of consequences anyway? On one hand, it feels to me that maybe one, or both are even partially involved. The father over kill? Maybe a “forbidden” romance between the boys could have been a factor? But, somehow looking at the whole picture, it feels more like it was an outsider. All in all, more questions than anything. Nothing seems to make me feel one way or the other definitively.

    This one is really tough for me. The false confession is definitely a possibility, and I agree there was a miscarriage of justice allowing Canadian confession into the USA court room. But in a way, if they were so smart, why even let yourselves get involved with “mobsters” ? Seems so stupid, unless you aren’t scared of consequences anyway?
    On one hand, it feels to me that maybe one, or both are even partially involved. The father over kill? Maybe a “forbidden” romance between the boys could have been a factor? But, somehow looking at the whole picture, it feels more like it was an outsider.
    All in all, more questions than anything. Nothing seems to make me feel one way or the other definitively.

  • Rach

    Rach California

    Hey gents, FYI the play “Rope” (and the Alfred Hitchcock movie) is about a murder with a ROPE. That’s why it’s called that. No bat. You’re welcome! xo

    Hey gents, FYI the play “Rope” (and the Alfred Hitchcock movie) is about a murder with a ROPE. That’s why it’s called that. No bat. You’re welcome! xo

  • Melissa

    Melissa Vancouver Island

    Based on the facts and not the fluff that distracts: Guilty. They were too clean. Not a smear of blood on them after stumbling onto that crime scene. They should have had SOMETHING on them. Sabastian waited until 9pm the following day to call his dad. Super suss. An innocent 18 year old kid’s first thought after stumbling onto a horrific bloody crime scene would be “I wanna go home. I want my parents”. A guilty 18 year old kid would put off calling dad because parents always know when their kid is shoveling lies their way. The mother is dead, facing east with her face covered. A spree killer wouldn’t show that kind of respect. A son would. Both your parents have been brutally attacked and you hear your sister moaning or crying and you leave her there to die. An innocent loving brother would at the very least hold his sister and comfort her even if he was unable to help her medically. It’s human nature (unless you lack empathy because you are a psychopath). Even toddlers will try to comfort infant siblings when they are in distress. A guilty brother would leave her for dead because it better suits his agenda. It took Sabastian until 9pm the following day to call his parents. An 18 year old boy, just having seen his best friend’s family butchered to death and being hauled into the police station would have called his parents immediately for guidance and comfort. The only reason to wait to call ypur dad is because you are putting it off. Why put that off unless you are guilty? He took the time to calm down and get it right before calling because he knew that his parents would know if he was lying (as parents tend to do). The mother was facing east with her face covered(post mortum). A random spree killer wouldn’t be so respectful but a son would. Your parents are slaughtered and you can hear your sister moaning and still clinging to life and you walk away? A loving brother stumbling onto this scene would at the very least hold his sister and give her some measure of comfort even if he could do nothing medically useful to help her. It’s called empathy. Small toddlers will try to soothe infant siblings when they cry. It’s human nature except in the case of a psychopathic type brain OR in the case of a brother wanting the sister to die. Motive: do we know the accused’s sexual orientation? Could they have been in a secret romantic relationship? Both of the son’s parents were clearly overachievers and highly educated Muslims. As much as they loved their daughter, perhaps her limitations left them feeling a sense of failure with regard to her. It’s plausible to assume that they may have pinned all of their dreams and hopes on their son. A homosexual son in 1994 in a Muslim household would have been an issue I’m going to guess. Could the son, after a lifetime of pressure to be perfect and shine so bright as to cast a shadow over his sister, have cracked under that pressure and decided that murder was a better option than crushing his parent’s dreams by coming out about his sexual orientation?

    Based on the facts and not the fluff that distracts: Guilty.
    They were too clean. Not a smear of blood on them after stumbling onto that crime scene. They should have had SOMETHING on them.

    Sabastian waited until 9pm the following day to call his dad. Super suss. An innocent 18 year old kid’s first thought after stumbling onto a horrific bloody crime scene would be “I wanna go home. I want my parents”. A guilty 18 year old kid would put off calling dad because parents always know when their kid is shoveling lies their way.

    The mother is dead, facing east with her face covered. A spree killer wouldn’t show that kind of respect. A son would.

    Both your parents have been brutally attacked and you hear your sister moaning or crying and you leave her there to die. An innocent loving brother would at the very least hold his sister and comfort her even if he was unable to help her medically. It’s human nature (unless you lack empathy because you are a psychopath). Even toddlers will try to comfort infant siblings when they are in distress. A guilty brother would leave her for dead because it better suits his agenda.

    It took Sabastian until 9pm the following day to call his parents. An 18 year old boy, just having seen his best friend’s family butchered to death and being hauled into the police station would have called his parents immediately for guidance and comfort. The only reason to wait to call ypur dad is because you are putting it off. Why put that off unless you are guilty? He took the time to calm down and get it right before calling because he knew that his parents would know if he was lying (as parents tend to do).

    The mother was facing east with her face covered(post mortum). A random spree killer wouldn’t be so respectful but a son would.

    Your parents are slaughtered and you can hear your sister moaning and still clinging to life and you walk away? A loving brother stumbling onto this scene would at the very least hold his sister and give her some measure of comfort even if he could do nothing medically useful to help her. It’s called empathy. Small toddlers will try to soothe infant siblings when they cry. It’s human nature except in the case of a psychopathic type brain OR in the case of a brother wanting the sister to die.

    Motive: do we know the accused’s sexual orientation? Could they have been in a secret romantic relationship?
    Both of the son’s parents were clearly overachievers and highly educated Muslims. As much as they loved their daughter, perhaps her limitations left them feeling a sense of failure with regard to her. It’s plausible to assume that they may have pinned all of their dreams and hopes on their son. A homosexual son in 1994 in a Muslim household would have been an issue I’m going to guess. Could the son, after a lifetime of pressure to be perfect and shine so bright as to cast a shadow over his sister, have cracked under that pressure and decided that murder was a better option than crushing his parent’s dreams by coming out about his sexual orientation?

  • Melissa

    Melissa Vancouver Island

    They didn't finish the sister off because they were already showered and clean. The sister being alive when they got back from the bar (bulking up their alibis with a visit to the bar) was likely a shock to them. They must have decided that her likelihood of survival AND being able to be a reliable witness were slim to none and not worth the risk of finishing her off.

    They didn't finish the sister off because they were already showered and clean. The sister being alive when they got back from the bar (bulking up their alibis with a visit to the bar) was likely a shock to them. They must have decided that her likelihood of survival AND being able to be a reliable witness were slim to none and not worth the risk of finishing her off.

  • Beth

    Beth Baltimore

    I was on the boys side until I heard they wrote a screen play.

    I was on the boys side until I heard they wrote a screen play.

  • Sandy

    Sandy

    [quote=Barbra] I think Sebastian did it. Alone. I don’t think the son was there when the murders took place. [/quote] I’ve wondered about this too. Maybe he stayed behind at the movie theatre to bolster the alibi.

    Barbra wrote:

    I think Sebastian did it. Alone. I don’t think the son was there when the murders took place.

    I’ve wondered about this too. Maybe he stayed behind at the movie theatre to bolster the alibi.

  • Kelly

    Kelly Los Angeles, CA

    What I don't get if the boys did it was why the overkill on the dad? Don't want to disparage a victim but if the son was responsible for the murders maybe there was some molestation by the dad? That would be a reason for the overkill. My gut is telling me they did it. But it is odd that they would not just finish off the sister, unless they somehow grew a conscience at the very end.

    What I don't get if the boys did it was why the overkill on the dad? Don't want to disparage a victim but if the son was responsible for the murders maybe there was some molestation by the dad? That would be a reason for the overkill. My gut is telling me they did it. But it is odd that they would not just finish off the sister, unless they somehow grew a conscience at the very end.

  • Kate

    Kate Ventura, Ca

    C’mon guys! You completely missed the relevance of “rope”. It’s not just about a body in a box at a party. The whole point of the play is the two guys who do it think they are intellectually superior, and commit the crime to prove they could get away with it and flaunting the body right in front of guests. Is it still a stretch? Probably. But does Sebastian come across as someone who feels he is intellectually superior? Absolutely. Coincidence? Unlikely. They are guilty, I’m sure. But the use of tapes is questionable, no doubt. The jury got it right.

    C’mon guys! You completely missed the relevance of “rope”. It’s not just about a body in a box at a party. The whole point of the play is the two guys who do it think they are intellectually superior, and commit the crime to prove they could get away with it and flaunting the body right in front of guests. Is it still a stretch? Probably. But does Sebastian come across as someone who feels he is intellectually superior? Absolutely. Coincidence? Unlikely.

    They are guilty, I’m sure. But the use of tapes is questionable, no doubt. The jury got it right.

  • MissMoxie

    MissMoxie West Vancouver

    I heard your podcast, was totally intrigued (since I hail from their hood in Van) and went straight to The Confession Tapes. I agree with Pokwok's comment above: Innocent without a doubt! My first thought as to why? Even before going to the Netflix show? Why on earth would the father be beaten to a PULP but not the mum and sister? There is NO mention anywhere of a contentious relationship between him and his son, or even between Burns and the father (if Burns allegedly did the killing). This looks to me to be a crime of deep hatred and vengeance, not a Pop-off-the-ol'-family-for-a-few-bucks kinda deal! WHICH LEADS ME TO...how in your podcast AND in the Confession Tapes it's pretty clearly laid out how utterly bullied these guys were by the undercover Canuck cops. Again, as Pokwok mentions, we need to look more closely into the phenomenon of coerced False Confessions. Then there's the idea that the Fuqra (pronounced 'Fookra' lol) did it 'cause they were pissed with Mr. Rafay's discovery that the mosques were slightly off in their "true East" positioning. Well that, to a radical group, is undoubtedly pure heresy (heresy not hearsay). This is not something an "uneducated-in-Islam" detective in lil' ol' Bellevue, Washington is gonna have very much experience with, right?! Especially since this was PRE 9/11...So here's what came up on the Confession Tapes, and I quote: "the FBI noted that Fuqra likely committed a SIMILAR MURDER (caps mine) of an East Indian family living in WA in 1984. The slain family were close friends of the president of Alpha Engineering. Alpha Engineering is the same firm that Tariq Rafay worked for when he and his family were murdered in '94." I think when the articulate ex-girlfriend of Burns explains in the Netflix series the whole FBI informant bit, about the hit on the family, that two men were to be involved, the baseball bat in the trunk, etc...I think that's when it becomes clear -- to me, anyway -- that those two boys, no matter how ridiculously and disgustingly they behaved throughout the whole ordeal, buying fancy cars and whatnot, those two boys were scared into a false confession. Cheers guys -- bring me on down to the garage I'll bring a case of Canuck craft beer and my humble two cents' worth haha! Love the show! (Oh, and I can correct all your spelling and grammar mistakes while I'm at it -- tee hee)...;))

    I heard your podcast, was totally intrigued (since I hail from their hood in Van) and went straight to The Confession Tapes. I agree with Pokwok's comment above: Innocent without a doubt! My first thought as to why? Even before going to the Netflix show? Why on earth would the father be beaten to a PULP but not the mum and sister? There is NO mention anywhere of a contentious relationship between him and his son, or even between Burns and the father (if Burns allegedly did the killing). This looks to me to be a crime of deep hatred and vengeance, not a Pop-off-the-ol'-family-for-a-few-bucks kinda deal! WHICH LEADS ME TO...how in your podcast AND in the Confession Tapes it's pretty clearly laid out how utterly bullied these guys were by the undercover Canuck cops. Again, as Pokwok mentions, we need to look more closely into the phenomenon of coerced False Confessions.
    Then there's the idea that the Fuqra (pronounced 'Fookra' lol) did it 'cause they were pissed with Mr. Rafay's discovery that the mosques were slightly off in their "true East" positioning. Well that, to a radical group, is undoubtedly pure heresy (heresy not hearsay). This is not something an "uneducated-in-Islam" detective in lil' ol' Bellevue, Washington is gonna have very much experience with, right?! Especially since this was PRE 9/11...So here's what came up on the Confession Tapes, and I quote: "the FBI noted that Fuqra likely committed a SIMILAR MURDER (caps mine) of an East Indian family living in WA in 1984. The slain family were close friends of the president of Alpha Engineering. Alpha Engineering is the same firm that Tariq Rafay worked for when he and his family were murdered in '94."
    I think when the articulate ex-girlfriend of Burns explains in the Netflix series the whole FBI informant bit, about the hit on the family, that two men were to be involved, the baseball bat in the trunk, etc...I think that's when it becomes clear -- to me, anyway -- that those two boys, no matter how ridiculously and disgustingly they behaved throughout the whole ordeal, buying fancy cars and whatnot, those two boys were scared into a false confession.
    Cheers guys -- bring me on down to the garage I'll bring a case of Canuck craft beer and my humble two cents' worth haha! Love the show! (Oh, and I can correct all your spelling and grammar mistakes while I'm at it -- tee hee)...wink)

  • JessLovesLeaves

    JessLovesLeaves Riverside CA

    Great episode guys! Re: the overkill on the father - why wasn’t the tip that had been taken out on the Rafay family taken more seriously? According to that theory, the hit was because the family was Muslim and the father, an engineer, had figured out that true east was actually a few degrees off. From what I understand (admittedly my knowledge is limited), Muslims all pray facing east and have many of their sacred buildings facing east. Thus, these calculations by Dr. Rafay could have potentially upset fundamentalists/extremists within the religion. If the tip was to be taken seriously, wouldn’t the father be the individual targeted in the hit? After all, he is the keeper of this information. The mother and daughter may have just been collateral damage. I think the fact that the mother’s body was placed facing east is also very telling - was it a way to pay respect to her in death? Or was it a statement? And perhaps the hitmen had been watching the house for a few days and thought only 3 people lived there so when the job was done, they felt comfortable taking their time leaving - showering, staging a break-in, etc. Anyway...just some thoughts. Keep it up! Love the show!

    Great episode guys!

    Re: the overkill on the father - why wasn’t the tip that had been taken out on the Rafay family taken more seriously? According to that theory, the hit was because the family was Muslim and the father, an engineer, had figured out that true east was actually a few degrees off. From what I understand (admittedly my knowledge is limited), Muslims all pray facing east and have many of their sacred buildings facing east. Thus, these calculations by Dr. Rafay could have potentially upset fundamentalists/extremists within the religion. If the tip was to be taken seriously, wouldn’t the father be the individual targeted in the hit? After all, he is the keeper of this information. The mother and daughter may have just been collateral damage. I think the fact that the mother’s body was placed facing east is also very telling - was it a way to pay respect to her in death? Or was it a statement? And perhaps the hitmen had been watching the house for a few days and thought only 3 people lived there so when the job was done, they felt comfortable taking their time leaving - showering, staging a break-in, etc.

    Anyway...just some thoughts. Keep it up! Love the show!

  • JTallroth

    JTallroth

    This might (yes MIGHT!) be a case were police and prosecutors have managed to totally botch an investigation and get ‘false’ confessions from the persons who actually did it... This is in my opinion one of the most interesting cases out there. Because of the fact that I’m leaning towards that they are guilty but I’m at the same time sure that the whole confession and Mr. Big tactics are totally bogus. This might be the one and only case were they did everything wrong but somehow ended up convicting the right people... It’s scarily crazy!

    This might (yes MIGHT!) be a case were police and prosecutors have managed to totally botch an investigation and get ‘false’ confessions from the persons who actually did it... This is in my opinion one of the most interesting cases out there. Because of the fact that I’m leaning towards that they are guilty but I’m at the same time sure that the whole confession and Mr. Big tactics are totally bogus. This might be the one and only case were they did everything wrong but somehow ended up convicting the right people... It’s scarily crazy!

  • Kate

    Kate Ventura, Ca

    Oh, another thought. Their alibi is so cliche. A movie?! please. That’s the easiest to walk up, get a ticket stub, been seen by witnesses, the walk in the theatre and out the back exit door. How many times do you go to the movies? What are the odds your family is slaughtered during that movie? During the one time you have physical proof “where you were” that’s hard to believe. Let’s not forget the Menendez brothers were also “at the movies” while their parents were murdered. Uh huh.

    Oh, another thought. Their alibi is so cliche. A movie?! please. That’s the easiest to walk up, get a ticket stub, been seen by witnesses, the walk in the theatre and out the back exit door.
    How many times do you go to the movies? What are the odds your family is slaughtered during that movie? During the one time you have physical proof “where you were” that’s hard to believe.

    Let’s not forget the Menendez brothers were also “at the movies” while their parents were murdered. Uh huh.

  • Hayley

    Hayley Minnesota

    I listened to the podcast then watched the Confession Tapes. I completely see where the Captain is torn. Their behavior is so odd but who can say definitively how someone would react in that situation. Most importantly, his statement on the use of illegally obtained information should vacate the conviction. I lean heavily toward Atif being innocent but I can also see room for this being someone who made an incredibly dumb decision and is now fully regretting it. However, the way he spoke in his sentencing hearing and his reaction at the verdict just did not seem like someone who is guilty. It looked like someone who was defeated. Sebastian is just so arrogant. He is honestly why I can't make up my mind. My mind continues going back to the Al-fuqra group. Pointing out the 1 degree off positioning seems like an extreme reason to target a family but I am not Muslim so it could be a huge deal to make this statement. The fact that Sultana is facing east is an interesting detail but forensics would need to definitively state was she moved post-mortem or was this a coincidence? It would make more sense for the father to be facing east. Another great week, thank you, as always!

    I listened to the podcast then watched the Confession Tapes. I completely see where the Captain is torn. Their behavior is so odd but who can say definitively how someone would react in that situation. Most importantly, his statement on the use of illegally obtained information should vacate the conviction.

    I lean heavily toward Atif being innocent but I can also see room for this being someone who made an incredibly dumb decision and is now fully regretting it. However, the way he spoke in his sentencing hearing and his reaction at the verdict just did not seem like someone who is guilty. It looked like someone who was defeated.

    Sebastian is just so arrogant. He is honestly why I can't make up my mind.

    My mind continues going back to the Al-fuqra group. Pointing out the 1 degree off positioning seems like an extreme reason to target a family but I am not Muslim so it could be a huge deal to make this statement. The fact that Sultana is facing east is an interesting detail but forensics would need to definitively state was she moved post-mortem or was this a coincidence? It would make more sense for the father to be facing east.

    Another great week, thank you, as always!

  • Melisa

    Melisa Grayson, GA

    What if they heard the sister when they arrived and thought the killer was still in the house, that is why he was saying he didn't feel safe on the 911 call. I have no clue if they are guilty or innocent, one second I think they did it then the next I am not sure.

    What if they heard the sister when they arrived and thought the killer was still in the house, that is why he was saying he didn't feel safe on the 911 call. I have no clue if they are guilty or innocent, one second I think they did it then the next I am not sure.

  • True Crime Garage

    True Crime Garage

    Sorry Rach, I had not seen it and a bat was reported as the weapon in the play per statements from Sebastian's father and I believe it was on the old 48 hours episode as well. Thanks for clearing that up. Cheers, Nic

    Sorry Rach,
    I had not seen it and a bat was reported as the weapon in the play per statements from Sebastian's father and I believe it was on the old 48 hours episode as well. Thanks for clearing that up.
    Cheers,
    Nic

  • Tintin

    Tintin Willow Springs, MO

    After the murders, the boys were placed in a low-end motel with very few amenities and no phone in the room. (This info comes from an article that quotes Sebastian's father.) The absence of a phone in the room explains the delayed call to Sebastian's father. The crappy motel room may also explain why they got a VCR and movies: If the TV had only local channels, there was not much to watch to distract them, and they'd soon be viewing the 10 pm news reports about the murders.

    After the murders, the boys were placed in a low-end motel with very few amenities and no phone in the room. (This info comes from an article that quotes Sebastian's father.) The absence of a phone in the room explains the delayed call to Sebastian's father.

    The crappy motel room may also explain why they got a VCR and movies: If the TV had only local channels, there was not much to watch to distract them, and they'd soon be viewing the 10 pm news reports about the murders.

  • Brooke

    Brooke Waynesville, NC

    Great episode! I was hooked from the start, and I had never even heard of this case before. Now I have to go watch the tapes everyone is talking about. Also, have you guys ever looked into the case of Robin Reeves? She was murdered in Thomson, Georgia. I have always been intrigued by it because my parents live in Thomson, and when you go there and go downtown you drive by the house the murder was committed in, it has sat untouched since the murder and the windows are plastered with posters of the victim's face and information wanted posters. It's a very eerie sight! Keep up the good work!

    Great episode! I was hooked from the start, and I had never even heard of this case before. Now I have to go watch the tapes everyone is talking about.

    Also, have you guys ever looked into the case of Robin Reeves? She was murdered in Thomson, Georgia. I have always been intrigued by it because my parents live in Thomson, and when you go there and go downtown you drive by the house the murder was committed in, it has sat untouched since the murder and the windows are plastered with posters of the victim's face and information wanted posters. It's a very eerie sight!

    Keep up the good work!

  • David

    David Nelson, BC

    Great Episode guys, And one where I found the Captain perhaps the most pragmatic of any episode (maybe beer fund is lacking?) Anyhow, I am surprised you did not mention (or not aware?) of Sebastian's affair/tryst with his lawyer while in custody. I don't think the incident should disparage his character, but could it speak to it? Maybe? I suspect incarceration leaves many people vulnerable, and in some ways that should maybe veil an incident like so. But also good information for your listeners I believe. Thanks

    Great Episode guys,

    And one where I found the Captain perhaps the most pragmatic of any episode (maybe beer fund is lacking?)

    Anyhow, I am surprised you did not mention (or not aware?) of Sebastian's affair/tryst with his lawyer while in custody. I don't think the incident should disparage his character, but could it speak to it? Maybe? I suspect incarceration leaves many people vulnerable, and in some ways that should maybe veil an incident like so. But also good information for your listeners I believe.

    Thanks

  • True Crime Garage

    True Crime Garage

    David we had a whole page or so on Sebastian's affair (long running) with his lawyer however there was so much to talk about regarding the confessions and the boys actions and behavior we had to leave it out. We probably could have done 3 or 4 episodes on this case, as you can see both were longer episodes. Cheers Nic

    David we had a whole page or so on Sebastian's affair (long running) with his lawyer however there was so much to talk about regarding the confessions and the boys actions and behavior we had to leave it out. We probably could have done 3 or 4 episodes on this case, as you can see both were longer episodes.
    Cheers Nic

  • John

    John Whitewater

    Guilty as sin.

    Guilty as sin.

  • Tintin

    Tintin Willow Springs, MO

    A detail stands out as worthy of research, though I have found nothing on it: In The Confession Tapes, according to Sebastian Burn's father, Sebastian's attorney was caught having sex with Sebastian immediately after she'd returned from Japan to announce that Miyoshi was on the brink of recanting his testimony (or something along those lines). Has anyone else seen this info from another source, particularly a source not affiliated with Burns or Rafay.

    A detail stands out as worthy of research, though I have found nothing on it: In The Confession Tapes, according to Sebastian Burn's father, Sebastian's attorney was caught having sex with Sebastian immediately after she'd returned from Japan to announce that Miyoshi was on the brink of recanting his testimony (or something along those lines). Has anyone else seen this info from another source, particularly a source not affiliated with Burns or Rafay.

  • M

    M

    [quote=True Crime Garage ] David we had a whole page or so on Sebastian's affair (long running) with his lawyer however there was so much to talk about regarding the confessions and the boys actions and behavior we had to leave it out. We probably could have done 3 or 4 episodes on this case, as you can see both were longer episodes. Cheers Nic [/quote] I think these guys are beyond guilty. My reasons for believing so have mostly been pointed out in previous comments, but Sebastian's affair with his lawyer sealed the case for me. Sebastian and Atif appear to be in a classic dominant narcissist/dependent submissive pathological relationship. (Possibly sexual, as pointed out by previous commenters.) Sebastian seems to be a textbook narcissist, as does his father. (The father was *so* haughty at times, it really bothered me.) Manipulating people is what narcissists do best. Sebastian manipulated Atif into murdering his family together, manipulated his parents into believing they're innocent, manipulated his old girlfriend into becoming his own personal evangelist, and then manipulated his lawyer into a sexual relationship. How could Sebastian get his lawyer to believe in his innocence and work as hard as possible on his defense? Seduce her! So he did. He did it because that's what narcissists do; they manipulate people to get what they want. There's my two cents. I could be totally wrong but I'm probably not. P.S. Great episode(s), guys, keep it up!

    True Crime Garage wrote:

    David we had a whole page or so on Sebastian's affair (long running) with his lawyer however there was so much to talk about regarding the confessions and the boys actions and behavior we had to leave it out. We probably could have done 3 or 4 episodes on this case, as you can see both were longer episodes.
    Cheers Nic


    I think these guys are beyond guilty. My reasons for believing so have mostly been pointed out in previous comments, but Sebastian's affair with his lawyer sealed the case for me. Sebastian and Atif appear to be in a classic dominant narcissist/dependent submissive pathological relationship. (Possibly sexual, as pointed out by previous commenters.) Sebastian seems to be a textbook narcissist, as does his father. (The father was *so* haughty at times, it really bothered me.) Manipulating people is what narcissists do best. Sebastian manipulated Atif into murdering his family together, manipulated his parents into believing they're innocent, manipulated his old girlfriend into becoming his own personal evangelist, and then manipulated his lawyer into a sexual relationship. How could Sebastian get his lawyer to believe in his innocence and work as hard as possible on his defense? Seduce her! So he did. He did it because that's what narcissists do; they manipulate people to get what they want. There's my two cents. I could be totally wrong but I'm probably not. P.S. Great episode(s), guys, keep it up!

  • John

    John Cudahy, WI

    Echoing @JTallroth&@Tintin, Folks need to consider a third option here...a coerced, YET truthful confession. Secondly, if you're prevailing attitude throughout a MURDER INVESTIGATION is that of arrogance or indifference, you're likely outcome is not favorable. (Think Echols) The Confession Tapes is an all-time great watch, thanks guys! Sean Connery as Mr Burns and John Walsh as the Judge, lol

    Echoing @JTallroth&@Tintin, Folks need to consider a third option here...a coerced, YET truthful confession.

    Secondly, if you're prevailing attitude throughout a MURDER INVESTIGATION is that of arrogance or indifference, you're likely outcome is not favorable. (Think Echols)

    The Confession Tapes is an all-time great watch, thanks guys! Sean Connery as Mr Burns and John Walsh as the Judge, lol

  • Ariella B

    Ariella B NC

    I’ve studied this case quite a bit. There were a few issues I had with your analysis on this case, and I think it was likely due to the slant of the documentary. 1) you assume they were at their alibis the entire five hours. Sabastian has a history of using being at a movie as an alibi when he actually snuck out the back door of the movie and then did what he did. The movie they allege to have watched all of the way through is The Lion King, a cartoon Disney movie. These were 19-year-olds and not at all childlike. Give me a break. They didn’t go watch Simba grow up with Pumba... 2) they allege that they went home and were in the house for about three minutes enough to determine the mother and father were dead and also somehow figured out in that small period during that trauma that Atif’s CD player and the vcr was missing. 3) you claim that because the Rafays just moved in, you can’t tell if they were robbed. I was actually robbed right after moving into an apartment. I hadn’t unpacked a thing. There was clear evidence of forced entry and all my boxes and suitcases were strewn EVERYWHERE. When the police arrived 30 mins later and after they went through the scene for two hours, I still couldn’t point out what they stole because the place was a wreck. It’s awfully convenient that Atif knew in three minutes that those two specific things were gone at the same time of seeing his brutally murdered family. 4) as you said there was proof that the killer showered after the attack. The only DNA found in the shower were the Rafays and Sabastian’s. If a third person showered in the home after the murder, that person’s DNA would be in the shower as well. 5) the only DNA or prints in the house belonged to the Rafays and Sabastian’s. If a third person did those murders the place would either be totally wiped clean or have that other person’s DNA. Those unknown hairs were likely transferred because if it was the killer’s it would’ve matched to hairs in the shower. 6) the mother’s body was left covered, which indicates remorse and honor to the woman and that the killer knew and loved the person. Atif has made clear he was very close to his mother. A random killer or terrorist would not have covered her face. 7) this theory that an extremist attacked the family bc the father contested the due east of the mosques is nonsense. You say that according to him he was challenging the Qur’an. He wasn’t. He was trying to be absolutely strict on direction of prayer. If anything he was being extreme. You say his claim is saying all the mosques need to be picked up and shifted three degrees. That’s false. The solution is simply that congregants shift their prayer mat three degrees within the mosque to fulfill true East prayer. 8) for a family so religious that the father was concerned about true East prayer, there is no way that Atif wouldn’t have known that his family’s funeral was required to be within three days. Indeed, the family is required to help clean and watch over the bodies in that time. Instead of honoring his family, he and Sabastian fled the country without informing the police. They also both ran out of the family’s Canada memorial giggling and not staying for the service. 9) Atif never tried to save his sister or take her out of the alleged dangerous zone. If he wanted her alive and lived he would’ve tried. 10) them knowing she’s still alive does not prove their innocence. She was low functioning nonverbal autistic. They knew she could never call 911 or name them. Also they laugh that she was the one who fought the most surprisingly and sickeningly laughed about it. Autistic people have sensory issues and can’t feel pain like neurotypical people do. They often fight crimes harder than others. 11) they go on a total spending spree after Atif gets the life insurance pay out. Odd way to grieve if you’re innocent. 12) they point out that this figure of a person in the room of the Atif father is used to prove there was a second killer. In their confessions, they admit, laughing, that the sister was walking around during the murder. That’s likely her figure. 13) the mr big confession is considered awful and unlawful bc it wouldn’t be admitted here, but the police are legally permitted here to lie to suspects and the confession stands. The fact mr big lies and said they have DNA etc, if it had been done by the police here, it would be held up. What they did that’s illegal here is entrap them in the other crimes they committed. 14) Sabastian is a clear case of a sociopath. He’s charismatic. He has sex appeal that attracts so many including his own attorney. He has no empathy - laughing about the killings. He fantasized about killing in high school. He has no issue with lying. 15) Sabastian admitting he was naked is what makes most sense of what happened. The clothing he’s talking of throwing out were likely socks, and making stuff up; plus who loads two pair of underwear. 16) the two boys story is going to differ because Atif couldn’t bear to watch his mother being killed and just let his psycho friend do it bc he fell under his spell to get rich and get rid of his father who probably put a lot of pressure on him, as East Indian immigrant families place on their kids, and that would’ve explained the overkill. 17) Myoshi likely only knows they did it and his guilt is that he obstructed justice and aided and abetted after the fact. That’s why he didn’t admit to it. 18) I think Sabastian planned the whole thing, explaining why Atif fumbled on these points. 19) the police found various items in random dumpsters as they confessed to. 20) they were so arrogant that when they were challenged by lies by mr big, they thought they could outsmart him with random theories. 21) false confessions are almost entirely made by children, those with low IQ or both. Neither is the case here. The reason why there are discrepancies is bc Sebastian is so arrogant that he tried to make himself out to be a criminal mastermind to impress these gangsters on how smart he is. 22) being intelligent like these two are doesn’t mean they are street smart. They aren’t and this is why they can’t smell that mr big is a farce. 23) I think Atif is genuinely remorseful and he feels even worse that he put on this mask of a hardened criminal who is a family aniliator. He was just Sebastian’s pawn, who convinced him that he was so smart they’d get off. 24) they were never intimidated into doing the initial crimes. In fact Sebastian was brave enough to give them shit on paying them too little money. They may have been the most notorious murderers in Canada but Atif could’ve returned to college. Jimmy went on to have a productive life. 25) those coerced into confessions are scared and they are fed info and then they parrot back that info. They were laid back, feet up, laughing and no info was fed to them. It all came from their mouths. 26) legally, the confession is admissible bc the method is legal in the jurisdiction it was obtained in. The analogy that a confession gained in the Middle East after being tortured with fingers and toes being removed would not be admissible because that violates international criminal law. So it wouldn’t be admissible here. They clearly were afraid and coerced bc myoshi felt safe enough to not confess and say no thanks. Sorry but not buying their innocence claim. Sebastian is the definition of a sociopath.

    I’ve studied this case quite a bit. There were a few issues I had with your analysis on this case, and I think it was likely due to the slant of the documentary.
    1) you assume they were at their alibis the entire five hours. Sabastian has a history of using being at a movie as an alibi when he actually snuck out the back door of the movie and then did what he did. The movie they allege to have watched all of the way through is The Lion King, a cartoon Disney movie. These were 19-year-olds and not at all childlike. Give me a break. They didn’t go watch Simba grow up with Pumba...
    2) they allege that they went home and were in the house for about three minutes enough to determine the mother and father were dead and also somehow figured out in that small period during that trauma that Atif’s CD player and the vcr was missing.
    3) you claim that because the Rafays just moved in, you can’t tell if they were robbed. I was actually robbed right after moving into an apartment. I hadn’t unpacked a thing. There was clear evidence of forced entry and all my boxes and suitcases were strewn EVERYWHERE. When the police arrived 30 mins later and after they went through the scene for two hours, I still couldn’t point out what they stole because the place was a wreck. It’s awfully convenient that Atif knew in three minutes that those two specific things were gone at the same time of seeing his brutally murdered family.
    4) as you said there was proof that the killer showered after the attack. The only DNA found in the shower were the Rafays and Sabastian’s. If a third person showered in the home after the murder, that person’s DNA would be in the shower as well.
    5) the only DNA or prints in the house belonged to the Rafays and Sabastian’s. If a third person did those murders the place would either be totally wiped clean or have that other person’s DNA. Those unknown hairs were likely transferred because if it was the killer’s it would’ve matched to hairs in the shower.
    6) the mother’s body was left covered, which indicates remorse and honor to the woman and that the killer knew and loved the person. Atif has made clear he was very close to his mother. A random killer or terrorist would not have covered her face.
    7) this theory that an extremist attacked the family bc the father contested the due east of the mosques is nonsense. You say that according to him he was challenging the Qur’an. He wasn’t. He was trying to be absolutely strict on direction of prayer. If anything he was being extreme. You say his claim is saying all the mosques need to be picked up and shifted three degrees. That’s false. The solution is simply that congregants shift their prayer mat three degrees within the mosque to fulfill true East prayer.
    8) for a family so religious that the father was concerned about true East prayer, there is no way that Atif wouldn’t have known that his family’s funeral was required to be within three days. Indeed, the family is required to help clean and watch over the bodies in that time. Instead of honoring his family, he and Sabastian fled the country without informing the police. They also both ran out of the family’s Canada memorial giggling and not staying for the service.
    9) Atif never tried to save his sister or take her out of the alleged dangerous zone. If he wanted her alive and lived he would’ve tried.
    10) them knowing she’s still alive does not prove their innocence. She was low functioning nonverbal autistic. They knew she could never call 911 or name them. Also they laugh that she was the one who fought the most surprisingly and sickeningly laughed about it. Autistic people have sensory issues and can’t feel pain like neurotypical people do. They often fight crimes harder than others.
    11) they go on a total spending spree after Atif gets the life insurance pay out. Odd way to grieve if you’re innocent.
    12) they point out that this figure of a person in the room of the Atif father is used to prove there was a second killer. In their confessions, they admit, laughing, that the sister was walking around during the murder. That’s likely her figure.
    13) the mr big confession is considered awful and unlawful bc it wouldn’t be admitted here, but the police are legally permitted here to lie to suspects and the confession stands. The fact mr big lies and said they have DNA etc, if it had been done by the police here, it would be held up. What they did that’s illegal here is entrap them in the other crimes they committed.
    14) Sabastian is a clear case of a sociopath. He’s charismatic. He has sex appeal that attracts so many including his own attorney. He has no empathy - laughing about the killings. He fantasized about killing in high school. He has no issue with lying.
    15) Sabastian admitting he was naked is what makes most sense of what happened. The clothing he’s talking of throwing out were likely socks, and making stuff up; plus who loads two pair of underwear.
    16) the two boys story is going to differ because Atif couldn’t bear to watch his mother being killed and just let his psycho friend do it bc he fell under his spell to get rich and get rid of his father who probably put a lot of pressure on him, as East Indian immigrant families place on their kids, and that would’ve explained the overkill.
    17) Myoshi likely only knows they did it and his guilt is that he obstructed justice and aided and abetted after the fact. That’s why he didn’t admit to it.
    18) I think Sabastian planned the whole thing, explaining why Atif fumbled on these points.
    19) the police found various items in random dumpsters as they confessed to.
    20) they were so arrogant that when they were challenged by lies by mr big, they thought they could outsmart him with random theories.
    21) false confessions are almost entirely made by children, those with low IQ or both. Neither is the case here. The reason why there are discrepancies is bc Sebastian is so arrogant that he tried to make himself out to be a criminal mastermind to impress these gangsters on how smart he is.
    22) being intelligent like these two are doesn’t mean they are street smart. They aren’t and this is why they can’t smell that mr big is a farce.
    23) I think Atif is genuinely remorseful and he feels even worse that he put on this mask of a hardened criminal who is a family aniliator. He was just Sebastian’s pawn, who convinced him that he was so smart they’d get off.
    24) they were never intimidated into doing the initial crimes. In fact Sebastian was brave enough to give them shit on paying them too little money. They may have been the most notorious murderers in Canada but Atif could’ve returned to college. Jimmy went on to have a productive life.
    25) those coerced into confessions are scared and they are fed info and then they parrot back that info. They were laid back, feet up, laughing and no info was fed to them. It all came from their mouths.
    26) legally, the confession is admissible bc the method is legal in the jurisdiction it was obtained in. The analogy that a confession gained in the Middle East after being tortured with fingers and toes being removed would not be admissible because that violates international criminal law. So it wouldn’t be admissible here. They clearly were afraid and coerced bc myoshi felt safe enough to not confess and say no thanks.

    Sorry but not buying their innocence claim. Sebastian is the definition of a sociopath.

  • Didialle

    Didialle Chicago

    I feel like the tone of the documentary really sways the viewer. I remember watching a tv special of this case a long time ago, where I was convinced that they were guilty. No matter how much we give these 18 yr olds leeway for their "suspicious" behaviors, I just can't fathom how Atif would be comfortable making a movie out of this incident. And in every clip that is shown of this case, I just get arrogance from Sebastian.

    I feel like the tone of the documentary really sways the viewer. I remember watching a tv special of this case a long time ago, where I was convinced that they were guilty. No matter how much we give these 18 yr olds leeway for their "suspicious" behaviors, I just
    can't fathom how Atif would be comfortable making a movie out of this incident. And in every clip that is shown of this case, I just get arrogance from Sebastian.

  • Sam215

    Sam215 Indiana

    I am just now listening and you are talking about the 911 call and the boy who has a stutter or stammer. My 18 year old son has a stutter and while he controls it quite well when in stressful situations he talks slowly and has to choose words carefully that he can say without the stutter. Then the words will just flow out. His voice also goes lower when he is trying to control his stutter. I haven’t heard the whole podcast yet and am not familiar with this story so I am still unsure of guilt or innocence

    I am just now listening and you are talking about the 911 call and the boy who has a stutter or stammer. My 18 year old son has a stutter and while he controls it quite well when in stressful situations he talks slowly and has to choose words carefully that he can say without the stutter. Then the words will just flow out. His voice also goes lower when he is trying to control his stutter.

    I haven’t heard the whole podcast yet and am not familiar with this story so I am still unsure of guilt or innocence

  • Robert Belyk

    Robert Belyk Victoria BC

    Regardless of the question of the use of this material in an American court, the entire "Mr. Big" operation was a botched job. Neither boy provided conclusive proof that he had solid information of the murders— details that were not already available through other sources. However, in other cases, these sting operations have clearly convicted murderers whose confessions could not have been obtained in other ways. In short, "Mr Big" is dirty trick but it works. Clearly though, whether guilty or innocent, Sebastian and Rafay shouldn't have been convicted on this questionable evidence.

    Regardless of the question of the use of this material in an American court, the entire "Mr. Big" operation was a botched job. Neither boy provided conclusive proof that he had solid information of the murders— details that were not already available through other sources.
    However, in other cases, these sting operations have clearly convicted murderers whose confessions could not have been obtained in other ways. In short, "Mr Big" is dirty trick but it works. Clearly though, whether guilty or innocent, Sebastian and Rafay shouldn't have been convicted on this questionable evidence.

  • Mark

    Mark Austin

    Shocked I finished this episode and more than disappointed in what is usually one of my favorite podcasts. I can excuse the Captain's nonsense and ridiculous comments, it is what he does, but Nic, I expect more from you. These guys are as guilty as guilty gets, which is why they are both sitting in a prison right now. The points that were raised to try to convey doubt were so silly. And when confronted with insurmountable evidence, like the hair in the shower, or confessions, we hear, "they were cocky" and "they were entitled" and all sorts of other garbage. And how were these guys drinking wine when they were 18? The Lion King? Renting videos after your entire family is murdered? The total distortion about what the play Rope was about? A Muslim that did not understand that Sharia law requires burial within 24 hours? Give me a break! It is offensive when people try to make up stuff to excuse the actions of triple murderers. Stop! They did it and the friend that testified against them was not looking at the death penalty, another misrepresentation.

    Shocked I finished this episode and more than disappointed in what is usually one of my favorite podcasts. I can excuse the Captain's nonsense and ridiculous comments, it is what he does, but Nic, I expect more from you. These guys are as guilty as guilty gets, which is why they are both sitting in a prison right now. The points that were raised to try to convey doubt were so silly. And when confronted with insurmountable evidence, like the hair in the shower, or confessions, we hear, "they were cocky" and "they were entitled" and all sorts of other garbage. And how were these guys drinking wine when they were 18? The Lion King? Renting videos after your entire family is murdered? The total distortion about what the play Rope was about? A Muslim that did not understand that Sharia law requires burial within 24 hours? Give me a break! It is offensive when people try to make up stuff to excuse the actions of triple murderers. Stop! They did it and the friend that testified against them was not looking at the death penalty, another misrepresentation.

  • Jamie

    Jamie Cincinnati OH

    I am officially torn between their innocence and guilt. What is still bothering me and preventing me from leaning towards guilty is actually Atif’s statement during sentencing. He did not once mention missing his sister, only his parents. He did not once mention his sadness over her murder- only his parents .... I thought this was odd. According to his account from what the Confession Tapes showed, he never acknowledged that his sister was also murdered. Why? I am stuck on this and I can’t get past it. Loved the episode and would love to get your thoughts on this. Thanks, Jamie

    I am officially torn between their innocence and guilt. What is still bothering me and preventing me from leaning towards guilty is actually Atif’s statement during sentencing. He did not once mention missing his sister, only his parents. He did not once mention his sadness over her murder- only his parents ....
    I thought this was odd. According to his account from what the Confession Tapes showed, he never acknowledged that his sister
    was also murdered. Why?
    I am stuck on this and I can’t get past it.
    Loved the episode and would love to get your thoughts on this.
    Thanks,
    Jamie

  • B

    B Parts Unknown

    My gut tells me they're guilty. The 911 call sounds inauthentic. They are doing a good job at breathing as if they are panicked and their adrenaline is rushing. When they talk though, that breathlessness/panic/rush doesn't come through as authentic in their voice. I've heard to many 911 calls of people in peril/discovering something horrific. No matter how "put together" some people sound on tape, you can always hear that fear/adrenaline/shock. What if that lead about someone putting a hit on the family was actually coming from the kids? Whose to say that they didn't try to get someone to murder the parents and then decided to do it themselves? I don't think that renting a VCR, not calling your parents, etc can be used as any sort of claim that they were acting weird. However, there is not much to prove that they did it. I do believe that the way the Canadians garnered their "confession" cannot be trusted and that definitely should not have been used as evidence. One of the many problems with obtaining "dirty" confessions or having a weak case and pushing false/unknown narratives is that it takes the focus away from the actual crime and getting a clean conviction.

    My gut tells me they're guilty. The 911 call sounds inauthentic. They are doing a good job at breathing as if they are panicked and their adrenaline is rushing. When they talk though, that breathlessness/panic/rush doesn't come through as authentic in their voice. I've heard to many 911 calls of people in peril/discovering something horrific. No matter how "put together" some people sound on tape, you can always hear that fear/adrenaline/shock.

    What if that lead about someone putting a hit on the family was actually coming from the kids? Whose to say that they didn't try to get someone to murder the parents and then decided to do it themselves?

    I don't think that renting a VCR, not calling your parents, etc can be used as any sort of claim that they were acting weird.

    However, there is not much to prove that they did it. I do believe that the way the Canadians garnered their "confession" cannot be trusted and that definitely should not have been used as evidence. One of the many problems with obtaining "dirty" confessions or having a weak case and pushing false/unknown narratives is that it takes the focus away from the actual crime and getting a clean conviction.

  • Jessica

    Jessica Portland

    Hey guys, thanks for this show. I lived in Bellevue for a time, not during these murders, ( ten years later)- but even then it was a sleepy city, wealthy and so “white bred” the thought of anything outside western/Christian ideals is completely foreign even now.... It’s literally NO EFFING wonder these detectives didn’t think the extremists/religious tips/views mattered... racism is seeded so deep we can’t even see it in our own reflections. Having lived there and watching the documentary, I know the DA and the detective believe they are right, and I am sure they are probably good people... but it’s so obvious these kids were trying their best to be cool in front of these “gangsters” ... they’re idiots but not murders.

    Hey guys, thanks for this show. I lived in Bellevue for a time, not during these murders, ( ten years later)- but even then it was a sleepy city, wealthy and so “white bred” the thought of anything outside western/Christian ideals is completely foreign even now.... It’s literally NO EFFING wonder these detectives didn’t think the extremists/religious tips/views mattered... racism is seeded so deep we can’t even see it in our own reflections. Having lived there and watching the documentary, I know the DA and the detective believe they are right, and I am sure they are probably good people... but it’s so obvious these kids were trying their best to be cool in front of these “gangsters” ... they’re idiots but not murders.

  • True Crime Garage

    True Crime Garage

    Hi TinTin, Yeah I caught tha but dismissed it. That's Sebastian's father trying to paint some sort of conspiracy however Sebastian and the lawyer had been messing around for a while and this was suspected by the guards. This was reported to the supervisors and they were being watched on that visit to confirm it. The lawyers words back up the claims of the guards. So it's just happenstance that they were caught after the Japan trip. Cheers, Nic

    Hi TinTin,
    Yeah I caught tha but dismissed it. That's Sebastian's father trying to paint some sort of conspiracy however Sebastian and the lawyer had been messing around for a while and this was suspected by the guards. This was reported to the supervisors and they were being watched on that visit to confirm it. The lawyers words back up the claims of the guards. So it's just happenstance that they were caught after the Japan trip.
    Cheers, Nic

  • Alejandra

    Alejandra Los Ángeles

    I believe these two guys are innocent. People forget that these were a couple of knucklehead TEEANAGERS. Mr. Big was nothing but a bully to these kids. I’m infuriated that they’re spending the rest of their lives for a crime they didn’t commit. Thanks for a great podcast!

    I believe these two guys are innocent. People forget that these were a couple of knucklehead TEEANAGERS. Mr. Big was nothing but a bully to these kids. I’m infuriated that they’re spending the rest of their lives for a crime they didn’t commit. Thanks for a great podcast!

  • Sara

    Sara KSA

    Per the Islamic burial: you should be buried within 24hrs. I think I’ve heard there’s a 3 day max in the event of extreme circumstances (like...murder). I find it hard to believe he didn’t know they’d be buried soon. The only thing I can figure is that perhaps the police said they weren’t releasing the bodies for a certain time, but then they did, catching him off guard.

    Per the Islamic burial: you should be buried within 24hrs. I think I’ve heard there’s a 3 day max in the event of extreme circumstances (like...murder). I find it hard to believe he didn’t know they’d be buried soon. The only thing I can figure is that perhaps the police said they weren’t releasing the bodies for a certain time, but then they did, catching him off guard.

  • Rachel p

    Rachel p Salt Lake City

    I have watched many different specials on this cas and the thing that always strikes me is how little anyone discusses the sister. Atif refers many times to his parents and the loss of his parents - including in his sentencing - but he doesn’t ever talk about losing his sister. I have worked with many disabled kids and siblings of disable people are usually very protective and close to their siblings. It shocks me that he almost seems to forget about her completely.

    I have watched many different specials on this cas and the thing that always strikes me is how little anyone discusses the sister. Atif refers many times to his parents and the loss of his parents - including in his sentencing - but he doesn’t ever talk about losing his sister. I have worked with many disabled kids and siblings of disable people are usually very protective and close to their siblings. It shocks me that he almost seems to forget about her completely.

  • R. Brown

    R. Brown Vancouver

    Hi guys, I recently listened to your podcast regarding this case, and also watched the Netflix documentary. I have a couple of insights, though I come with a lot of biases. First of all, I am familiar with the area this took place, and I am familiar with the area from where these two boys are from. Secondly, I share a similar cultural background to Atif and his family. Lastly, I had a family member who was killed in a targeted sting due to an intersection of religious/political/criminal involvement. I think you can see where I am going with this. I am certain of these boys innocence. As far as the hard evidence goes, the most reliable pieces of information came from the other Law Enforcement offices tipping off the Bellevue police. There is no indication that the investigators followed through with these leads, despite them coming from reputable sources. The impression they leave here is that they simply do not want to. As far as Atif and Sebastian are concerned, their personalities and reactions to the murders come into question. Personally, I do not find either of their respective behaviour all that odd. Sebastian acts like an arrogant, spoiled, North Vancouver kid. Atif's attitudes towards his individual family members (as well as treatment of his mentally disabled sister) are in line with how the spoiled only son of a South Asian family would act. This is all of course personal opinion, but it seems like that's what this entire case seems to be founded on. I feel like I know multiple men who are just like Atif and Sebastian. While they arent people who invite a lot of affection, they also aren't murderers either. I also want to bring up the fact that, even though these are intelligent teenagers who are allegedly committing these acts, they clearly aren't criminal masterminds. After seeing the way they conduct themselves in this Mr. Big operation, there is no way in hell I can believe they were criminally savvy enough to cover up the evidence so thoroughly while maintaining "too solid" alibis. I also can't believe that they didn't slip once during the time they were living together and working on a screenplay about what happened. Surely, they'd have to parse through the facts of what happened that night in order to write the script in the first place. Police found no incriminating evidence while this was happening? If they were so careful so as to not speak about the "truth" in their own self perceived privacy, why would they suddenly start bragging about it when these stranger gangster characters enter the picture? The most logical explanation is that the confessions were fabricated in hopes of impressing them. I don't think the motive makes a whole lot of sense either. If Sebastian was the one who did the act, then way all the hatred towards the father? I don't buy the gay lover theory for a multiple reasons I won't get into. Atif being the orchestrator also doesn't really make sense either, nor does it align with the confessions they gave. The people who I'm suspicious of having done it would be, I assume, experienced hit men who knew how to cover their tracks. Obviously I am biased because of my experience with having someone I know killed in an organized hit, so that colours my reaction to this case. I just wanted to bring up probability vs possibility. The way this story is laid out, everything really boils down to what is possible vs what is probable. It is possible that the boys did it according to the timeline and motive. It is possible too that it was an organized hit. As far as probability, I think for most people it's easier to believe that the boys did it. This is because it puts a recognizable face to the perpetrator. This story is easier to understand because it gives us something to interrogate. That in itself makes that theory more probably. I just want to get it out there that things like religious/political fanaticism and the conflicts they create in criminal activity aren't just things that happen out there, or in total secrecy. They happen, and regular uninvolved people do get left behind to deal with the aftermath. Given the evidence in this case, I can't help but believe that is the most probable version of what happened.

    Hi guys, I recently listened to your podcast regarding this case, and also watched the Netflix documentary. I have a couple of insights, though I come with a lot of biases. First of all, I am familiar with the area this took place, and I am familiar with the area from where these two boys are from. Secondly, I share a similar cultural background to Atif and his family. Lastly, I had a family member who was killed in a targeted sting due to an intersection of religious/political/criminal involvement.

    I think you can see where I am going with this. I am certain of these boys innocence. As far as the hard evidence goes, the most reliable pieces of information came from the other Law Enforcement offices tipping off the Bellevue police. There is no indication that the investigators followed through with these leads, despite them coming from reputable sources. The impression they leave here is that they simply do not want to.

    As far as Atif and Sebastian are concerned, their personalities and reactions to the murders come into question. Personally, I do not find either of their respective behaviour all that odd. Sebastian acts like an arrogant, spoiled, North Vancouver kid. Atif's attitudes towards his individual family members (as well as treatment of his mentally disabled sister) are in line with how the spoiled only son of a South Asian family would act. This is all of course personal opinion, but it seems like that's what this entire case seems to be founded on. I feel like I know multiple men who are just like Atif and Sebastian. While they arent people who invite a lot of affection, they also aren't murderers either.

    I also want to bring up the fact that, even though these are intelligent teenagers who are allegedly committing these acts, they clearly aren't criminal masterminds. After seeing the way they conduct themselves in this Mr. Big operation, there is no way in hell I can believe they were criminally savvy enough to cover up the evidence so thoroughly while maintaining "too solid" alibis. I also can't believe that they didn't slip once during the time they were living together and working on a screenplay about what happened. Surely, they'd have to parse through the facts of what happened that night in order to write the script in the first place. Police found no incriminating evidence while this was happening? If they were so careful so as to not speak about the "truth" in their own self perceived privacy, why would they suddenly start bragging about it when these stranger gangster characters enter the picture? The most logical explanation is that the confessions were fabricated in hopes of impressing them.

    I don't think the motive makes a whole lot of sense either. If Sebastian was the one who did the act, then way all the hatred towards the father? I don't buy the gay lover theory for a multiple reasons I won't get into. Atif being the orchestrator also doesn't really make sense either, nor does it align with the confessions they gave. The people who I'm suspicious of having done it would be, I assume, experienced hit men who knew how to cover their tracks.

    Obviously I am biased because of my experience with having someone I know killed in an organized hit, so that colours my reaction to this case. I just wanted to bring up probability vs possibility. The way this story is laid out, everything really boils down to what is possible vs what is probable. It is possible that the boys did it according to the timeline and motive. It is possible too that it was an organized hit. As far as probability, I think for most people it's easier to believe that the boys did it. This is because it puts a recognizable face to the perpetrator. This story is easier to understand because it gives us something to interrogate. That in itself makes that theory more probably. I just want to get it out there that things like religious/political fanaticism and the conflicts they create in criminal activity aren't just things that happen out there, or in total secrecy. They happen, and regular uninvolved people do get left behind to deal with the aftermath. Given the evidence in this case, I can't help but believe that is the most probable version of what happened.

  • Sara

    Sara KSA

    Rachel P: I have thought the same. Bothers me to no end.

    Rachel P: I have thought the same. Bothers me to no end.

  • John

    John Atlanta

    [quote=Yuval] Hi guys! Great episodes as always. Very interesting. Have you ever considered the possibility that maybe the boys were romantically involved? It could be an additional motive. I just got that gut feeling for some reason. I agree that there is not enough evidence to convict them, sadly. [/quote] Good insight. I hadn’t thought of that!

    Yuval wrote:

    Hi guys! Great episodes as always. Very interesting. Have you ever considered the possibility that maybe the boys were romantically involved? It could be an additional motive. I just got that gut feeling for some reason.
    I agree that there is not enough evidence to convict them, sadly.


    Good insight. I hadn’t thought of that!

  • Robb

    Robb Nashville, TN

    These were great episodes. My favorite cases are the ones that involve a real mystery between guilt or innocence. I have just a couple of comments. First of all, The Rope was based on a real crime ... the Leopold / Loeb case, the murder of Bobby Franks. It is an extremely fictionalized account though. Another novel and film, Compulsion, gives a much more accurate and closely detailed version of the crime. At any rate, that murder was also committed by two young men who thought they were of such super intelligence that ordinary rules should not apply to them. Regarding this case, I would say the two are likely guilty; and I do think there was a physical relationship between the boys that was forbidden by the father. That was the real motive. The money was icing on the cake. I don't like the The Mr Big angle though. I think it taints the evidence ... but on the other hand, I am not in favor of throwing the case out based on that. These boys, especially Sebastian, are psychopaths. The world is likely a better place with them in prison. I just want to make another observation about a number of cases. You will often hear people wonder about why a murderer would have done this or that ... claiming a particular action does not make sense. Does the murder itself really ever make sense? When people do horrendous things to other people, there is a certain amount of rationalization going on which keeps the murderer from being grounded in reality and common sense. Actions don't have to be logical in cases like that.

    These were great episodes. My favorite cases are the ones that involve a real mystery between guilt or innocence. I have just a couple of comments.

    First of all, The Rope was based on a real crime ... the Leopold / Loeb case, the murder of Bobby Franks. It is an extremely fictionalized account though. Another novel and film, Compulsion, gives a much more accurate and closely detailed version of the crime. At any rate, that murder was also committed by two young men who thought they were of such super intelligence that ordinary rules should not apply to them.

    Regarding this case, I would say the two are likely guilty; and I do think there was a physical relationship between the boys that was forbidden by the father. That was the real motive. The money was icing on the cake. I don't like the The Mr Big angle though. I think it taints the evidence ... but on the other hand, I am not in favor of throwing the case out based on that. These boys, especially Sebastian, are psychopaths. The world is likely a better place with them in prison.

    I just want to make another observation about a number of cases. You will often hear people wonder about why a murderer would have done this or that ... claiming a particular action does not make sense. Does the murder itself really ever make sense? When people do horrendous things to other people, there is a certain amount of rationalization going on which keeps the murderer from being grounded in reality and common sense. Actions don't have to be logical in cases like that.

  • Patty

    Patty Kalamazoo, MI

    Don't know if they are guilty or not, but I can tell you that what the police did in Canada to get statements is not considered "Entrapment." Entrapment occurs when police activity encourages and causes someone to commit a crime that they might not otherwise commit. Very difficult to prove. One possible example is when car maker, John Delorean, desperate for money, was persuaded by the FBI into getting involved with cocaine dealing. He was later acquitted. As for confessions, pretty much anything goes as to police behavior, but the defense attorneys can still argue successfully that the confessions are not reliable. Love your show!!!

    Don't know if they are guilty or not, but I can tell you that what the police did in Canada to get statements is not considered "Entrapment." Entrapment occurs when police activity encourages and causes someone to commit a crime that they might not otherwise commit. Very difficult to prove. One possible example is when car maker, John Delorean, desperate for money, was persuaded by the FBI into getting involved with cocaine dealing. He was later acquitted. As for confessions, pretty much anything goes as to police behavior, but the defense attorneys can still argue successfully that the confessions are not reliable. Love your show!!!

  • AB

    AB

    This is pretty late in the game, but the bat/Rope thing - the original play and corresponding Hitchcock movie used a rope, yes. However, reportedly the play Sebastian was in did use a bat instead.

    This is pretty late in the game, but the bat/Rope thing - the original play and corresponding Hitchcock movie used a rope, yes. However, reportedly the play Sebastian was in did use a bat instead.

  • Brittney

    Brittney Missouri

    Great episodes! I was so excited when I saw you were covering this case! I watched the Netflix series awhile back and this was the only one that really bothered me. For a documentary that is meant to convince you of their innocence and I came away instead thinking they were the only ones in the whole series that might be guilty, really said something. Even putting aside my gut feeling about the 911 call, their behavior, etc. there are a few things I can't get over. If this was some sort of hit for religious reasons why not kill the father somewhere else alone? Or if the mission was to kill the whole family for the father's beliefs, why isn't the whole family dead? Why leave the son alive? If you knew so much about this man and his beliefs how would you not know how many people were in his family? We know that Atif and Sebastian had been staying at the house for several days prior so if the killer(s) had been watching the family just days prior to the murders (which seems like the more logical thing to do than weeks prior) they should know there are five people in the house. It is a HUGE coinicdence to me that the murders happen during the few days that Atif and Sebastian would be visiting the family. Also the fact that the killer showered after the murders. This shows the killer(s) knew they had time to do this without fear of being caught by someone coming home. They had to know how many people were in the family. Surely there were pictures of four family members, the fact that Atif had a bedroom there, or other indicators of how many people were living in the house at the time that the killer could have noticed. If Sebastian and Atif did it they would obviously feel comfortable taking a shower afterwards. The only hairs in that shower were from Sebastian, so unless the killer was completely bald I can't get past that pointing to him as the killer. At the same time the overkill of the father is the best argument for me of their innocence. That does line up with the other tips they were getting about it being for religious reasons. But maybe there was other motive for it if it was Sebastian and Atif that we just don't know about. Anyway that's my two cents. I loved both of your thoughts and insights into their guilt or innocence. Keep up the good work! Cheers!

    Great episodes! I was so excited when I saw you were covering this case! I watched the Netflix series awhile back and this was the only one that really bothered me. For a documentary that is meant to convince you of their innocence and I came away instead thinking they were the only ones in the whole series that might be guilty, really said something. Even putting aside my gut feeling about the 911 call, their behavior, etc. there are a few things I can't get over. If this was some sort of hit for religious reasons why not kill the father somewhere else alone? Or if the mission was to kill the whole family for the father's beliefs, why isn't the whole family dead? Why leave the son alive? If you knew so much about this man and his beliefs how would you not know how many people were in his family? We know that Atif and Sebastian had been staying at the house for several days prior so if the killer(s) had been watching the family just days prior to the murders (which seems like the more logical thing to do than weeks prior) they should know there are five people in the house. It is a HUGE coinicdence to me that the murders happen during the few days that Atif and Sebastian would be visiting the family. Also the fact that the killer showered after the murders. This shows the killer(s) knew they had time to do this without fear of being caught by someone coming home. They had to know how many people were in the family. Surely there were pictures of four family members, the fact that Atif had a bedroom there, or other indicators of how many people were living in the house at the time that the killer could have noticed. If Sebastian and Atif did it they would obviously feel comfortable taking a shower afterwards. The only hairs in that shower were from Sebastian, so unless the killer was completely bald I can't get past that pointing to him as the killer.

    At the same time the overkill of the father is the best argument for me of their innocence. That does line up with the other tips they were getting about it being for religious reasons. But maybe there was other motive for it if it was Sebastian and Atif that we just don't know about.
    Anyway that's my two cents. I loved both of your thoughts and insights into their guilt or innocence. Keep up the good work! Cheers!

  • True Crime Garage

    True Crime Garage

    Brittany you bring up a good point, if it was a hit killing Mr. Rafay elsewhere would be a smar move unless after watching him you believe you couldn't do this elsewhere and go undetected. But then as you point out watching him would lead to knowing there were four members in the Rafay family plus a house guest. Could 3 grown males in the house at once deter the killer or killers from striking, sure. Then they would watch the house and wait until the two younger males leave. If this was an organized hit, you could have a car tail the boys and call the killer(s) if it looks like they were going to return. So you may be in no hurry. But then again if it were a team you may not be concerned leaving the scene bloody. My gut tells me they did it. The overkill does still bring up questions for me. -Nic

    Brittany you bring up a good point, if it was a hit killing Mr. Rafay elsewhere would be a smar move unless after watching him you believe you couldn't do this elsewhere and go undetected. But then as you point out watching him would lead to knowing there were four members in the Rafay family plus a house guest. Could 3 grown males in the house at once deter the killer or killers from striking, sure. Then they would watch the house and wait until the two younger males leave. If this was an organized hit, you could have a car tail the boys and call the killer(s) if it looks like they were going to return. So you may be in no hurry. But then again if it were a team you may not be concerned leaving the scene bloody. My gut tells me they did it. The overkill does still bring up questions for me. -Nic

  • True Crime Garage

    True Crime Garage

    Sorry - Brittney 👍 Nic

    Sorry - Brittney 👍
    Nic

  • Candace

    Candace Halifax

    Guilty as hell!

    Guilty as hell!

  • Matt

    Matt Eh?

    I've not listened or watched or read anything about this case aside from listening to Nic and the Cptn.... Wow. Just listened to these at work today. What a mess. I can't pick guilty or innocent. I do know that the Mr. Big scheme has come under fire here in BC and because of the entrapment issue it's not a very popular tactic like it once was. Once you're involved in something like that, you're really set up to fail. What I can't get past, regardless of their actions, is the 3 independent tips that all appear to tie back to the family. That sounds like a far larger motive than what didn't seem to be a significant amount of insurance money. We're those leads worked? 1 could be dismissed. 2... Maybe. 3 that's hard to ignore. Arrogant seems to be the preferred discriptor of the boys. What about completely naive? Prior to listening to these podcasts I could see trying to be helpful like them. Now... Some of these cases are entrapment by another method. Things that I think stink... 1. Bellevue PD releasing them and then saying they ran. Playing both sides against the middle. 2. Bellevue PD dismissing 3 tips that would have sent them in another direction. Were these dug into? They sure seemed focused on the boys. 2b. I know the RCMP is huge and communication doesn't seem to be the Forte of them, but if their tip was dropped without any further investigation, to go immediately to a Mr. Big scheme seems like a massive oversight. Plus, to me if feels like Bellevue is getting the RCMP to do their dirty work for them. 3. Mr. Big - as laid out in the podcast, once they were in, there was no getting out of it. The last Mr. Big scheme involved the RCMP supplying suspects with the means to make bombs and helping them do it. As noted by Nic people were dropping like flies around these guys. I don't imagine that anyone would think it's a good idea to say something like "hey guys, yeah we were just joking about what happened in Bellevue, but we good right?" I'd bet they'd push until they got the "confession" they wanted. 4. The motive for the hit actually makes more sense than the motivation for the boys.

    I've not listened or watched or read anything about this case aside from listening to Nic and the Cptn....
    Wow. Just listened to these at work today. What a mess.
    I can't pick guilty or innocent. I do know that the Mr. Big scheme has come under fire here in BC and because of the entrapment issue it's not a very popular tactic like it once was. Once you're involved in something like that, you're really set up to fail.

    What I can't get past, regardless of their actions, is the 3 independent tips that all appear to tie back to the family. That sounds like a far larger motive than what didn't seem to be a significant amount of insurance money. We're those leads worked? 1 could be dismissed. 2... Maybe. 3 that's hard to ignore. Arrogant seems to be the preferred discriptor of the boys. What about completely naive? Prior to listening to these podcasts I could see trying to be helpful like them. Now... Some of these cases are entrapment by another method.

    Things that I think stink...
    1. Bellevue PD releasing them and then saying they ran. Playing both sides against the middle.
    2. Bellevue PD dismissing 3 tips that would have sent them in another direction. Were these dug into? They sure seemed focused on the boys.
    2b. I know the RCMP is huge and communication doesn't seem to be the Forte of them, but if their tip was dropped without any further investigation, to go immediately to a Mr. Big scheme seems like a massive oversight. Plus, to me if feels like Bellevue is getting the RCMP to do their dirty work for them.
    3. Mr. Big - as laid out in the podcast, once they were in, there was no getting out of it. The last Mr. Big scheme involved the RCMP supplying suspects with the means to make bombs and helping them do it. As noted by Nic people were dropping like flies around these guys. I don't imagine that anyone would think it's a good idea to say something like "hey guys, yeah we were just joking about what happened in Bellevue, but we good right?" I'd bet they'd push until they got the "confession" they wanted.
    4. The motive for the hit actually makes more sense than the motivation for the boys.

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